How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7ff "All Israel is Saved" even those who died enemies of the Gospel?

[Alfred Persson]

How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7. In my opinion it reflects the school of Hillel division of mankind into three groups, the Elect, the Intermediate, the Reprobate, which school Paul was from:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. -Rom. 11:7.

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
...
[I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority:

The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contemPet.’
[F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
[H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”
[The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards [a judgment of] mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83-84). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
…
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:7-12:1 NKJ)


In other words, the Reprobate are lost eternally, but those of the Elect and Intermediate in context are “all Israel”, many of whom died unbelievers in Christ, enemies of the Gospel. But out of Zion comes their deliverer, who rescues them from Hades. That causes Paul to profusely praise God for His Mercy.


Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ. Everyone who dies without Christ, who have not committed eternal sins, who are not reprobate wicked, hear the gospel of Christ preached to them in Hades, and they can repent and believe, then live according to God in the Spirit waiting for the Resurrection to life:

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


They hear Christ's voice in Hades, and all who obediently hear will rise to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7. In my opinion it reflects the school of Hillel division of mankind into three groups, the Elect, the Intermediate, the Reprobate, which school Paul was from:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. -Rom. 11:7.

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
...
[I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority:

The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contemPet.’
[F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
[H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”
[The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards [a judgment of] mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83-84). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
…
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:7-12:1 NKJ)


In other words, the Reprobate are lost eternally, but those of the Elect and Intermediate in context are “all Israel”, many of whom died unbelievers in Christ, enemies of the Gospel. But out of Zion comes their deliverer, who rescues them from Hades. That causes Paul to profusely praise God for His Mercy.


Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ. Everyone who dies without Christ, who have not committed eternal sins, who are not reprobate wicked, hear the gospel of Christ preached to them in Hades, and they can repent and believe, then live according to God in the Spirit waiting for the Resurrection to life:

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


They hear Christ's voice in Hades, and all who obediently hear will rise to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Clarification: Paul was not from the "Reprobate school", Paul was taught by Gamaliel, school of Hillel. NT Eschatology is clearly influenced by their beliefs:

"I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

A study of the Church fathers implies the Christian Church became confused about Hades, after they lost access to Israeli culture of the First Century. They mixed in pagan ideas and confused NT statements so that Hades became a place of torment rather than the intermediate place where souls are judged, after hearing the gospel preached:

Christ's timeless sacrifice extends redemption to everyone born on earth since the "foundation of the world", and all who accept the gospel of Christ at their judgment then "eagerly wait for Him", His second coming when they will be raised from the dead, raptured with the church:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Cor. 15:51-57 NKJ)

Or if they were saved after the Rapture, at the Great White Throne Judgment where their name will be found written into the Lamb's Book of Life and rise to the resurrection of life:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful 2]

How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7. In my opinion it reflects the school of Hillel division of mankind into three groups, the Elect, the Intermediate, the Reprobate, which school Paul was from:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. -Rom. 11:7.

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
...
[I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority:

The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contemPet.’
[F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
[H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”
[The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards [a judgment of] mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83-84). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
…
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:7-12:1 NKJ)


In other words, the Reprobate are lost eternally, but those of the Elect and Intermediate in context are “all Israel”, many of whom died unbelievers in Christ, enemies of the Gospel. But out of Zion comes their deliverer, who rescues them from Hades. That causes Paul to profusely praise God for His Mercy.


Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ. Everyone who dies without Christ, who have not committed eternal sins, who are not reprobate wicked, hear the gospel of Christ preached to them in Hades, and they can repent and believe, then live according to God in the Spirit waiting for the Resurrection to life:

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


They hear Christ's voice in Hades, and all who obediently hear will rise to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

Isn't "...all Israel shall be saved:" in Rom 11:26 ?

And, the enemies of the gospel will not be saved.
Where did you get the idea that they would be saved ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Isn't "...all Israel shall be saved:" in Rom 11:26 ?

And, the enemies of the gospel will not be saved.
Where did you get the idea that they would be saved ?

They are God's chosen people who died "enemies of the Gospel" because "God shut them up in disobedience", and it is God who will liberate them:

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:32 NKJ)

They are God's chosen people, He will never leave or forsake them, except the Reprobates. Both the Elect and "Middling" who die without Christ, and go to Sheol/Hades....immediately hear the gospel of Christ, repent and believe, and live according to God "in the Spirit". They are not in any torment, its as though they "sleep" in peace until the Rapture/Resurrection of the church, then they rise in bodies like Christ's resurrection body, to Join Christ's Army coming to the earth to slay the Antichrist Beast, Satan's Mighty Ones the Nephilim, and all who took the mark, at Armageddon.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom. 11:26-29 NKJ)

The 144,000 Jews born again filled with the Holy Spirit of God are the forerunners of God's Army, they evangelize the planet and restore to the Gentile Church the Truth about God's plan for salvation, how it is many who are saved, not a few. How God never predestines anyone to Gehinnom. All the things Gentiles got wrong, they will retore all things, with the power like that of Elijah:

And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse." (Mal. 4:6 NKJ)

When God's two witnesses arrive, THEN is when God's Spirit is poured out adding 12,000 from each Tribe, to His
Army:

NKJ Revelation 7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev. 7:1-10 NKJ)


They will sing many new songs praising Jesus God the Eternal Son of the Father:

Our God is the God of salvation; And to GOD the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Those who died enemies of the gospel are fake Jews from the synagogue of Satan, Rev. 2:9, 3:9.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Those who died enemies of the gospel are fake Jews from the synagogue of Satan, Rev. 2:9, 3:9.

Perhaps, but not these:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom. 11:26-29 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Perhaps, but not these:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom. 11:26-29 NKJ)

According to one rabbi, Jacob and Israel are NOT interchangeable, whenever it says Jacob, that's an unrepenting, stiff-necked people; whenever it says Israel, that's the righteounes chosen people of God, that's what's left when ungodliness is turned away. Israel means struggle with God. Jacob saw Jesus as the ladder in a dream, he was still Jacob; he became Israel after he wrestled all night with God and broke his hip, that's a life changing experience. Every one of God's people must go through the same struggle with God in order to become Israel, God's Elect.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Clarification: Paul was not from the "Reprobate school", Paul was taught by Gamaliel, school of Hillel. NT Eschatology is clearly influenced by their beliefs:

Saul was according to that false zeal taught by Gamaliel .It was motivated by the father of lies, it became a the authority or licence to murder and torture Christians men and women who refused to believe in false prophecy, false apostles like Gamaliel

Acts 22: 3-5I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Paganism "out of sight out of mind" .As in who believes in a invisible God?

Satan the father of lies a murderer the lying spirit of the serial killers (copy cats) beginning Abel the prophet, apostle sent. . first listed martyr.. Cain buried him under out of sight out of mind. And when questioned by the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God. Cain the liar replied. How would I know where he is. . do you see him ? He is not in my pocket. . it's not my job to watch after my younger brother .

 

[Alfred Persson]

According to one rabbi, Jacob and Israel are NOT interchangeable, whenever it says Jacob, that's an unrepenting, stiff-necked people; whenever it says Israel, that's the righteounes chosen people of God, that's what's left when ungodliness is turned away. Israel means struggle with God. Jacob saw Jesus as the ladder in a dream, he was still Jacob; he became Israel after he wrestled all night with God and broke his hip, that's a life changing experience. Every one of God's people must go through the same struggle with God in order to become Israel, God's Elect.

He's ignorant of scripture. Jacob is Israel, and God chose Jacob/Israel the man, and because God is faithful to Jacob/Israel, his descendants are chosen.

And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." (Gen. 32:28 NKJ)

Israel the man was chosen, the nation named after him because they are his descendents:

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; (Deut. 7:7-9 KJV)

Jacob saw a ladder, not Jesus. He wrestled Jesus.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jacob saw a ladder, not Jesus. He wrestled Jesus.

No, that ladder symolized Jesus, that much is confirmed by Jesus himself:

" And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you,[m] you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." - Jn. 1:51

He's ignorant of scripture. Jacob is Israel, and God chose Jacob/Israel the man, and because God is faithful to Jacob/Israel, his descendants are chosen.

That's speaking of all Israelites in a collective sense, not all biological individual descendants of him are chosen.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

He's ignorant of scripture. Jacob is Israel, and God chose Jacob/Israel the man, and because God is faithful to Jacob/Israel, his descendants are chosen.

And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." (Gen. 32:28 NKJ)

Israel the man was chosen, the nation named after him because they are his descendents:

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; (Deut. 7:7-9 KJV)

Jacob saw a ladder, not Jesus. He wrestled Jesus.

Not all Israel is born again Israel. Some remained after Jacob (deceiver) as a outward Jew according to the flesh and not the born again as a inward Jew born from above .

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In Revelation the outward Jew thought he could enter in with a certificate of birth

Revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Jews at the feet of the gentiles. God is the savior of all the nations as families of the world .

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, that ladder symolized Jesus, that much is confirmed by Jesus himself:

" And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you,[m] you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." - Jn. 1:51

That's speaking of all Israelites in a collective sense, not all biological individual descendants of him are chosen.

Don't see where Jesus claimed to be the ladder, that angels walked on.

The Rabbi doesn't know scripture, or doesn't understand it. Jacob and Israel are not symbols of two different classes of people, they names of the one and same Person whom God promised He would bless his Descendents.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not all Israel is born again Israel. Some remained after Jacob (deceiver) as a outward Jew according to the flesh and not the born again as a inward Jew born from above .

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In Revelation the outward Jew thought he could enter in with a certificate of birth

Revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Jews at the feet of the gentiles. God is the savior of all the nations as families of the world .

Not all descendants of Jacob are "Israel", but Jacob and Israel are the same person.

When I read "I drove my car to the store", I do not interpret "He ascended to the heavens, and there entered the dispensary of God".

Sorry. Can't symbolize what is plain language, God renamed Jacob Israel. Has nothing to do with the Jews in Revelation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Don't see where Jesus claimed to be the ladder, that angels walked on.

Come on, that's obviously a reference to Jacob's dream.

The Rabbi doesn't know scripture, or doesn't understand it. Jacob and Israel are not symbols of two different classes of people, they names of the one and same Person whom God promised He would bless his Descendents.

No, they are two attitudes in the heart. It was the one and same man, but there was a transformation that changed his life. In Genesis, neither Abraham nor Isaac approached God and asked for a blessing, only Jacob wrestled with God till daybreak and his hop broke - "I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

 

[Alfred Persson]

Come on, that's obviously a reference to Jacob's dream.

No, they are two attitudes in the heart. It was the one and same man, but there was a transformation that changed his life. In Genesis, neither Abraham nor Isaac approached God and asked for a blessing, only Jacob wrestled with God till daybreak and his hop broke - "I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

No, its not. Although not recorded, the disciples did see angels attending the Son of Man. Just because the event isn't in the gospel, doesn't mean it didn't happen:

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25 NKJ)

No, the portals into the Dimension of God can open anytime, and inhabitants of the heavenly dimension enter our sphere of existence.

That's what the dream revealed to Jacob. Hence he called it the "gate of heaven":

12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: "I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.
14 "Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you."
16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it."
17 And he was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!"
(Gen. 28:12-17 NKJ)


Elijah went through that portal, carried in a chariot of God, a swirling vortex that may have been similar to the vortex that opened in the Series "Sliders" where they traveled between alternate worlds:

11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki. 2:11 NKJ)

John went through the portal into heaven to see what God revealed there:

NKJ Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." (Rev. 4:1 NKJ)

Christ and His Holy Myriads will go through an opening in the sky, flashing lightning from east to west, perhaps something like a "Stargate":

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(Rev. 19:11-14 NKJ)

Whatever it appears like, it will be awesome. Every eye will see it, even the dead who pierced Christ:


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, its not. Although not recorded, the disciples did see angels attending the Son of Man. Just because the event isn't in the gospel, doesn't mean it didn't happen:

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25 NKJ)

No, the portals into the Dimension of God can open anytime, and inhabitants of the heavenly dimension enter our sphere of existence.

That's what the dream revealed to Jacob. Hence he called it the "gate of heaven":

12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: "I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.
14 "Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you."
16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it."
17 And he was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!"
(Gen. 28:12-17 NKJ)


Elijah went through that portal, carried in a chariot of God, a swirling vortex that may have been similar to the vortex that opened in the Series "Sliders" where they traveled between alternate worlds:

11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki. 2:11 NKJ)

John went through the portal into heaven to see what God revealed there:

NKJ Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." (Rev. 4:1 NKJ)

Christ and His Holy Myriads will go through an opening in the sky, flashing lightning from east to west, perhaps something like a "Stargate":

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(Rev. 19:11-14 NKJ)

Whatever it appears like, it will be awesome. Every eye will see it, even the dead who pierced Christ:


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7 NKJ)

Jesus IS the truth, the life, the way, no one goes to heaven unless through him. Jacob didn't know who the Man is, he asked and the Man dismissed him. The Man's identity was hidden from Jacob but revealed to us.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus IS the truth, the life, the way, no one goes to heaven unless through him. Jacob didn't know who the Man is, he asked and the Man dismissed him. The Man's identity was hidden from Jacob but revealed to us.

Yes, Jesus is the Truth which is why, when He said the disciples would see angels descending and ascending, they did.

Of course it was Jesus. Not only did He enjoy wine at a wedding, and good food, He likes sports.

So all you people who love sports, be of good cheer. Christ does also.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, Jesus is the Truth which is why, when He said the disciples would see angels descending and ascending, they did.

Of course it was Jesus. Not only did He enjoy wine at a wedding, and good food, He likes sports.

So all you people who love sports, be of good cheer. Christ does also.

He didn't say angels rise and fall by flapping their wings, He said angels descending and ascending (specifically) ON THE SON OF MAN. If he's the gateway, then he's the ladder, same thing.

 

[Alfred Persson]

He didn't say angels rise and fall by flapping their wings, He said angels descending and ascending (specifically) ON THE SON OF MAN. If he's the gateway, then he's the ladder, same thing.

48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you,`I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon (1909 ἐπί epi) the Son of Man." (Jn. 1:48-51 NKJ)

Context rules out your interpretation.

Nathanael is told he will see greater things. There is no hint Christ is referring to Jacob and his dream.

Nathanel will see heaven opened and angels descending “upon” the Son of man, not “on” the Son of man.

Nathanael is not told "Jesus is the ladder". Notice how differently that reads; Christ didn't say that.

I recommend Grammatico-historical interpretation:

Protestant Biblical Interpretation: A Textbook of Hermeneutics Kindle Edition​

https://www.amazon.com/Protestant-B...watch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1700565735&sr=8-31

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you,`I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon (1909 ἐπί epi) the Son of Man." (Jn. 1:48-51 NKJ)

Context rules out your interpretation.

Nathanael is told he will see greater things. There is no hint Christ is referring to Jacob and his dream.

Nathanel will see heaven opened and angels descending “upon” the Son of man, not “on” the Son of man.

Nathanael is not told "Jesus is the ladder". Notice how differently that reads; Christ didn't say that.

I recommend Grammatico-historical interpretation:

Protestant Biblical Interpretation: A Textbook of Hermeneutics Kindle Edition​

https://www.amazon.com/Protestant-B...watch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1700565735&sr=8-31

If not Jacob's ladder, then what is this about? There's only records of the Holy Spirit descending upon him at his baptism and he himself ascending into heaven.