How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7ff "All Israel is Saved" even those who died enemies of the Gospel?

[RBDERRICK]

Alfred Persson said:
Purgatory? That is a Catholic doctrine about dead Catholics. Scripture doesn’t teach purgatory.

Purgatory is a 'holding' place of unrepented souls, that are separated from both the righteous and the more wicked souls. They are preserved their by God for a time, until they've 'learned their lesson' and are redeemed.

It's a form of unconditional preservation for unrepentant believers before and after the grave.

You teach it with a twist: They learn their lesson to finally repent, after being preached to again.

Since you also preach Christ's millennium during that time, then I suppose they get a thousand years of preaching to repent?

I would amend your stuff, to say that the unrepentant dead are all preached to, and only those refusing to repent at the end of the thousand years, go to hell.

And I suppose that dying during the thousand years means less than a thousand to repent. But hey, the unrepentant are the unrepentant, no matter how long they get preached to. Right?

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 

[RBDERRICK]

Alfred Persson said:
Peter says the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead so they can repent, he said nothing about purgations and neither did I:

The spirits in prison were preached to. Nothing about repentance.

All false teachers must insert their doctrine into the Bible, where it's not written by God, but only by dishonest men.

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
The serpent first handled the word of God to deceive unto destruction.

He says the transgressor shall not surely die today. You would say, that's because the unrepentant will surely get another chance tomorrow, and even after the grave.

And if they die at the beginning of a thousand years, then they get a whole thousand worth of preaching to repent.

 

[RBDERRICK]

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Those who are now dead, were preached to in the flesh before the grave.

We are at the point where each Scripture you try to justify yourself with, is in opposition to what the Scripture says.

I will continue to report what the Scripture says, without any self-justifying.

It's always the same case, whenever any proof Scripture is rejected, so that all other Scriptures are then corrupted by unbelief.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

You're post-grave repentance rejects this simple proof to the contrary. And so you are doing the same as people that try to preach a created christ, after rejecting the proof verse that the Word was God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


Nor would the Rich Man call him “father Abraham,”

I'm not sure why you show how to contradict Scripture again, other than to prove you have no respect for God's own words.

It's all the same spirit of error: God says ye shall surely die, and the serpent says ye shall not surely die. The rich man calls Abraham father, and you say the rich man does not call him father.

, because that is what the irredeemably wicked do. "They do not praise God" in the "pit" of hell.

Both he and Abraham are stating facts, not praising it.

I see now why you must contradict God's words here: OSAS. Sons that sin do not die to God.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Adam was a son of God, when the serpent came into the garden to have a talk.

And Abel was righteous, when Cain also came to have a talk.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You "make no claim"? Here is a list of your claims in this post alone:

1)Never with God without His word.
2)After death is the judgment, not the preaching.
3)The unrepentant are the wicked, whether small or great.
4)The books of works before the grave are opened to judge small and great by. Not the Bible to preach to them by.
5)Now we move from a 'fail-safe' purgatory for the hardened against God, to a present 'spiritual' reigning on earth to ward off the second death.
6)I make no claim.
7)I only repeat that the gospel is preached for now and today to repent unto salvation.

Facts are not claims. Claims are unfactual.

You also claim to believe the scripture, yet you aren't believing these scriptures; thus contradicting your claim::


Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

False claims are only implicit, when rejecting the explicit.

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

I chose this at random.

Redemption from death is twofold: first redemption is of the soul from the spiritual death of sinning. It is by God's deliverance from the sinning.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Second redemption is of the body from the grave. It is by resurrection of the dead unto life.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

As I said, once the proof verse is given, then we either believe it or don't. Them that believe it, read all other verses by that truth. Those who don't believe it, read all others verses from a lie.

In the end, the dead are raised to be judged, not preached to.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And the righteous judgment of God is by our works. There are no works with the grave.

I know some things go without saying, but I have learned with hardened teachers of error, that sometimes the obvious must be said. That's what I love so much about God's words:

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, with the grave, whither thou goest.

He states even the obvious explicitly, just so there's no implicit room for error.

You see, God's word is so perfectly written, that even when something is implicit and 'goes without saying', it is proven explicitly elsewhere in His word.

The implicit understanding of being judged by our works, is the works we do before the grave. The explicit proof is that there is no doing of works with the grave.

You see how that works? Nothing in Scripture is left by God to be implicit alone. That opens the door to our own faith alone filling in whatever we want. (Such as postmortem preaching unto repentance.)

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This insutction is free of charge. I just like teaching it whenver the occasion arises, because I enjoy it so much.
"And loving it!" (Get Smart)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The spirits in prison were preached to. Nothing about repentance.

All false teachers must insert their doctrine into the Bible, where it's not written by God, but only by dishonest men.

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
The serpent first handled the word of God to deceive unto destruction.

He says the transgressor shall not surely die today. You would say, that's because the unrepentant will surely get another chance tomorrow, and even after the grave.

And if they die at the beginning of a thousand years, then they get a whole thousand worth of preaching to repent.

I inserted nothing, Peter himself says Christ preached to the dead, formerly disobedience means NOW they were repenting, that they might be judged, and give the answer of a good conscience towards God, just as we do and are saved. Baptism, dying and being raised with Christ, is the antitype of this:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
...
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18-22, 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Facts are not claims. Claims are unfactual.



Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

False claims are only implicit, when rejecting the explicit.



I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

I chose this at random.

Redemption from death is twofold: first redemption is of the soul from the spiritual death of sinning. It is by God's deliverance from the sinning.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Second redemption is of the body from the grave. It is by resurrection of the dead unto life.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

As I said, once the proof verse is given, then we either believe it or don't. Them that believe it, read all other verses by that truth. Those who don't believe it, read all others verses from a lie.

In the end, the dead are raised to be judged, not preached to.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And the righteous judgment of God is by our works. There are no works with the grave.

I know some things go without saying, but I have learned with hardened teachers of error, that sometimes the obvious must be said. That's what I love so much about God's words:

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, with the grave, whither thou goest.

He states even the obvious explicitly, just so there's no implicit room for error.

You see, God's word is so perfectly written, that even when something is implicit and 'goes without saying', it is proven explicitly elsewhere in His word.

The implicit understanding of being judged by our works, is the works we do before the grave. The explicit proof is that there is no doing of works with the grave.

You see how that works? Nothing in Scripture is left by God to be implicit alone. That opens the door to our own faith alone filling in whatever we want. (Such as postmortem preaching unto repentance.)

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This insutction is free of charge. I just like teaching it whenver the occasion arises, because I enjoy it so much.
"And loving it!" (Get Smart)

Didn't see any facts in that list, just your claims.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Those who are now dead, were preached to in the flesh before the grave.

We are at the point where each Scripture you try to justify yourself with, is in opposition to what the Scripture says.

I will continue to report what the Scripture says, without any self-justifying.

They were preached to while alive, and they mocked not realizing they would account for their mocking to God when dead---judged according to men in the flesh. For their reason the Gospel was ALSO preached to them when dead, that they could repent and choose to live according to God in the Spirit:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

All teaching of God must be proven by the Bible, and any Scripture contradicting a teaching, proves it is not of God. There is no hope of repentance from the grave and hell.

You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

David writes he experienced postmortem opportunity literally. God brought his soul up from Sheol after he cried for help, and he was “healed”. Restored to life “חִיָּה … always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.”-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:25-32 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

[#O]
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.” (Hos. 13:14 NKJ)

I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes. (Hos. 13:14 LXX)-Greek Septuagint

Postmortem opportunity clearly taught, doubly implied by the context which is so gloomy and the change in tone so abrupt some believe Paul’s application (1 Cor. 15:55) “contextually problematic”. But that was the point, against the strong enemy of death God is victorious, in love He redeems the lost venting His rage at that which separates Him from them. He will show Death no pity.

As Hebrew Scholar Keil points out:

The questions, “Where are thy plagues, O death?” etc., are obviously meant to affirm the conquest or destruction of hell and death…To redeem or ransom from the hand (or power) of hell, i.e., of the under world, the realm of death, is equivalent to depriving hell of its prey, not only by not suffering the living to die, but by bringing back to life those who have fallen victims to hell, i.e., to the region of the dead…. The Apostle Paul has therefore very properly quoted these words in 1 Cor. 15:55, in combination with the declaration in Isa. 25:8, “Death is swallowed up in victory,” to confirm the truth, that at the resurrection of the last day, death will be annihilated, and that which is corruptible changed into immortality.-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 10, p. 104).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Postmortem Judgment is always explicit. Postmortem preaching unto repentance is not.

[#P]
Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly.
2 And he said: “I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the floods surrounded me; All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said,`I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.
7 “When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.
8 “Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.”
10 So the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land. (Jon. 2:1-3:1 NKJ)

Postmortem Opportunity is the point. As Jonah’s soul faints he remembers God implying repentance. God is not like the worthless gods of the nations, mere idols who have eyes to see but see not, ears to hear but hear not and would be of no help at all to Jonah. The LORD of Salvation is in His Holy Temple, ready to impose His will upon even the lowest Sheol.

The entire loses force if God doesn’t hear prayers of repentance in Sheol, forgiving trespass and redeeming the lost. The stated reason God is unlike idols is He reacts to prayer in Sheol. If there is connection to reality, the metaphor is incoherent and potentially disrespectful.

Jewish Tradition found another name for Gehenna in Jonah’s account:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are they: Netherworld, destruction, pit, [Slotki:] tumultuous pit, miry clay, shadow of death, and underworld.
B. “ ‘Netherworld’: ‘Out of the belly of the nether world I cried and you heard my voice’ (Jonah. 2:2).-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm not sure why you show how to contradict Scripture again, other than to prove you have no respect for God's own words.
...
The rich man calls Abraham father, and you say the rich man does not call him father.

Read it again, you reversed what I said.

By calling Abraham "Father" the rich man proves he is not irredeemably wicked.

The Rich Man is clearly sorrowful. He has Christian like concern for his family, that they not end up like he. Moreover, the redeemed in heaven want to comfort the Rich Man (Lk. 16:26), but that would be out of place if he were irredeemably wicked and was being punished eternally for sin. That would be rebellion against God’s judgment (compare: Deut. 19:21).

If the Rich Man knew his torment was eternal, that he had no hope for life.....its much more likely he would curse God and Abraham and everyone else., including Lazarus.

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

 

[RBDERRICK]

You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

David writes he experienced postmortem opportunity literally. God brought his soul up from Sheol after he cried for help, and he was “healed”. Restored to life “חִיָּה … always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.”-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

David and other old saints since righteous Abel, did not go to the torment of hell in need of repentance.

David with Abraham and all saints of old were delivered out of their garden in hell, which was emptied. And Jesus Christ was resurrected from the grave after preaching in hell.

All saints now in the presence of the Lord await for their bodily resurrection in the likeness of Jesus'.

 

[RBDERRICK]

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:25-32 NKJ)

'All Israel shall be saved' will be twofold with the Lord's return in His Millennial government.

All Israelites after the the flesh will be saved, along with all other judged sheep on earth. And in the first resurrection all shall be proven Israel of God in deed and in truth, and not just in name only.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The great hope of the prophets and apostles and all saints on earth, is for the day when no more hypocrites will stand among them.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

The unrighteous dead Israelites go where all unrighteous dead go, whether Jew or Greek.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
None of them were nor shall be the Israel of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

[#O]
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.” (Hos. 13:14 NKJ)

I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes. (Hos. 13:14 LXX)-Greek Septuagint

Resurrection of the dead bodies for judgment unto life for the righteous or to shame for the unrighteous.

The judgment is of works done in this life, whether good or evil.

 

[RBDERRICK]

[#P]
Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

Jonah did not die unto judgment.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus declares he was in the belly of the whale for three days, not in hell. It would later be a sign for Jesus Christ in hell for three days.

Jewish Tradition found another name for Gehenna in Jonah’s account:

More meaningless Jewish traditions and old fables.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, that turn from the truth.

That of course constricts the Lord's witness of Jonah only in the whale's belly.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Read it again, you reversed what I said.

By calling Abraham "Father" the rich man proves he is not irredeemably wicked.

The rich Israelite tormented in hell could not passover to his father Abraham.

Your personal OSAS doctrine forbids disobedient sons also being resurrected unto eternal contempt with all children of disobedience unto the grave.

First you acknowledge condemnation of the wicked in hell, and now you provide a way out for them too.

The Rich Man is clearly sorrowful. He has Christian like concern for his family, that they not end up like he. Moreover, the redeemed in heaven want to comfort the Rich Man (Lk. 16:26), but that would be out of place if he were irredeemably wicked and was being punished eternally for sin. That would be rebellion against God’s judgment (compare: Deut. 19:21).

If the Rich Man knew his torment was eternal, that he had no hope for life.....its much more likely he would curse God and Abraham and everyone else., including Lazarus.

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

More pseudo-scholarship to undo Bible truth.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

A hallmark of false teaching is turning to arguments over ancient languages and manuscripts, since the plain words say otherwise.

The principles of the doctrine of God do not need linguists, artifacts specialists, and archeologists to know and believe the words of Scripture of God.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I inserted nothing, Peter himself says Christ preached to the dead, formerly disobedience means NOW they were repenting, that they might be judged, and give

Let's review:

These are the specific Scriptures you reject: There is no hope to find truth after the grave. All men are judged by works done before the grave. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days, not in hell. The rich son of Abraham could not passover to his father Abraham.

You add preaching to the after death judgment of men's works.

You change your doctrine to accommodate disobedient sons tormented in hell.

You turn to old Jewish traditions and fables for support. As well as original language manipulation, rather than accept the plain words of God like any honest little child.