Is Being Against Tatoos the Law?

[Jethro Bodine]

Let me extend that to this matter of hair trimming. We don't know why the law says not to do it. That's why it's hard for obedience to that command to be nothing more than legalism (obedience in the absence of meaningful intent and purpose, or for no intent or purpose at all).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Tatoos are against the Law of Moses.

Why?

That's the defining question.
1. Some people say it is in the Bible, therefore don't do it.
2. Other people look at the reason why it is in the Bible and then say don't do it.

There is a difference there.

3.Some people disregard that it is in the Bible and call on their liberty in Christ to do it.

I say only number one is wrong.
Otherwise, we are discussing our personal preferences.

But according to Romans 14, if we are offending someone by promoting it, then we should stop for that person's sake.

 

[jasoncran]

paul clearly says that shaving ones head isn't a sin. see the first Corinthian epistle

 

[jasoncran]

So all opinions aside have we established that it IS the Law not to tattoo?
Is there still a pagan culture (not talking about small little tribe in the Amazon) of tattooing for the mourning of a loved one?
Is tattooing for the dead as the Law states. Are people tattooing for the dead?

What I do recognize from this scripture is this.....
What I do see in our culture is teenagers cutting themselves in mourning for themselves, for their pain!
And I believe that it is demonic, by the scripture of the demon possessed men in the NT.
So maybe we could discuss that in another thread as it is very relevant today.

In order for tattooing to be seen as evil we have to go beyond what the Law says about it?
So is it legalism to be against it? No, because it goes beyond the Law of Moses, which is the only place that speaks to it.

So is it a legitimate practice? All I can say about that is this. If you have one (a Christian symbol) that others can see, you had better be on your best behavior at all times. You are representing the Christian faith and our Savior. You are walking around like the Jewish priests with the little boxes tied to their heads and right arms containing the Torah, announcing to everyone who you represent. Jews wear the skull caps (sorry, can't remember what they are called), they are declaring their faith to the world so they'd better act like it.

yarmulke or kippah. and cutting isn't about pain relief but rather self loathing. gah, I now really hate that song by the Christian singer plumb where she says that cutting is relief of the pain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...it's good just to remember just how well established and widespread the practice is...

You're doing it again. You're rationalizing the practice by the fact that the world freely practices it. That is hardly a way to know if God wants us to do something, or not. I would suggest that is how you discern if you should NOT be doing something you wonder about doing.

We should not be taking our cues for right and wrong from the world. Good grief, that's exactly the problem with the church today...following the ways of the world because that's what the world does. Why hasn't the church learned from the example of Israel written down for us in our own Bibles?

 

[OhFarouk]

Sparrowhawke, Jethro, allenwynne:

Okay so we are getting into the theory of why or why not get a tattoo.

(I don't recall saying to anyone that they should, or should not get one, BTW.)

On a point that Jethro raises: the reason for the prohibition in Leviticus 19 about not trimming the corner of one's beard has been 'lost to history'. So this is supposedly dismissed from any other consideration of the passage, apparently. But then one is simultaneously supposed to go to the phrase in the adjacent verse in Leviticus 19 about cutting for the dead, etc. and say that tattoos are the same as necromancy and therefore with huge certainly and compulsion we are supposed to go in there and identify tattoos as a big no-no.

I find it hard to do exegesis in such a manner: exuding such compulsive certainty about one thing and then a few words away just explain it away as having been lost to history.

Fact is, Galatians 5:18 and Romans 6:14 remind us that the New Testament believer is under grace in any case.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

yarmulke or kippah. and cutting isn't about pain relief but rather self loathing. gah, I now really hate that song by the Christian singer plumb where she says that cutting is relief of the pain.

Huh? I suggest maybe we should have thread about that....self loathing is NOT painful?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But according to Romans 14, if we are offending someone by promoting it, then we should stop for that person's sake.

Correct. And I suggest to everyone that Romans 14 is NOT a green light to incorporate pagan practices directly into the worship of the true God. In the example there in Romans 14, eating meat sacrificed to a demon is one thing. But to then bring that meat into your worship of God is quite another.

That's why I say if you're going to get a tattoo in the name of Christian liberty, at least do not get a 'Christian' tattoo. Keep the pagan practice out of the visible and obvious worship of God where it does not belong. IMO, it's bad enough that you're harming your witness and your worship with a non-Christian tattoo, but to so blatantly and directly incorporate it into your worship of God is all the worse.

 

[jasoncran]

Huh? I suggest maybe we should have thread about that....self loathing is NOT painful?

ok, I can.

 

[OhFarouk]

I don't think she's planning any. She had to think about it again, if she'd even get one, when I asked her. Besides she doesn't have money to spend on that kind of thing right now.
If Jake keeps growing the way he does it will be a long while maybe before she does.

Hi Deborah13: I see you added a phrase after I replied to the earlier part of your post!

You got plenty of work there as a prayer warrior, right?

Yes, the larger tattoos especially are expensive, though a small one wouldn't be. (I'm not suggesting Lexy get a small one either; though you suggested that she may want to be tattooed eventually.)

God bless your family.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

On a point that Jethro raises: the reason for the prohibition in Leviticus 19 about not trimming the corner of one's beard has been 'lost to history'. So this is supposedly dismissed from any other consideration of the passage, apparently. But then one is simultaneously supposed to go to the phrase in the adjacent verse in Leviticus 19 about cutting for the dead, etc. and say that tattoos are the same as necromancy and therefore with huge certainly and compulsion we are supposed to go in there and identify tattoos as a big no-no.

If the passage meant only getting tattooed for the dead then you'd have a point we could discuss.

(I remember cringing, one day, when I saw a new worker in the warehouse with a big tattoo of his deceased brother on his arm.)

Fact is, Galatians 5:18 and Romans 6:14 remind us that the New Testament believer is under grace in any case.

Under grace means we can sin? Really?

I don't think you know what it means to be under grace. It doesn't mean you now have a license to disregard the law. But that is what so many people think it means.

 

[OhFarouk]

If the passage meant only getting tattooed for the dead then you'd have a point we could discuss.

(I remember cringing, one day, when I saw a new worker in the warehouse with a big tattoo of his deceased brother on his arm.)



Under grace means we can sin? Rally?

I don't think you know what it means to be under grace. It doesn't mean you now have a license to disregard the law. But that is what so many people think it means.

We really do have exegetical issues, Jethro.

First of all one has to identify the pagan necromancy and cutting for the dead of Lev. 19 as directly the same as the practice of tattooing today in all cases.

Then one would presumably have to assume that the New Testament also prohibits tattoos. (Where?)

There are many things in the Old Testament that are either not repeated in the New Testament or even explicitly done away with. For example, calling things unclean that God has cleansed; Peter's vision in Acts. The fact that we are not under the law any more. It would be highly inaccurate to dismiss these considerations but then to claim that those who make such distinctions are supposedly advocating sin.

I'm dispensational. You're not. Fine. We just need to acknowledge that our differing hermeneutics are likely to lead us also to different conclusions in some things.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Please, for the sake of the kingdom, do not get a 'Christian' tattoo.

Do not bring Christ and the faith down into the worldliness of arrogance, image, and sensuality that tattooing still represents in the world today.

That's the bottom line about all this for me. Tattooing is a worldly practice done for worldly reasons. Please don't identify Christ and his people and his kingdom with this ungodly practice. Turn on M-TV and see that we are supposed to be everything that tattooing does NOT represent.

And in regard to the shaving...

Whatever it was among the pagans about hair cutting that God did not want the Isrealites identifying themselves with and bringing into their worship of the true God has been lost to history. IOW, the intent served by the prohibition against whatever cutting of the hair Moses was talking about is unknown and unrecognizable and unpracticed in the world today. Therefore, it's impossible that doing that somehow serves the agenda of a false god and brings reproach on the people and kingdom of God, or risks polluting it with the worship of pagan ideas that are incompatible with the worship of God. But until tattooing becomes like the cutting of the hair prohibited in the law (in a fashion and for a purpose no one knows what Moses was talking about anymore), tattooing should be 'taboo' for the faithful servant of God. But if you must do it, please don't do it in a way that connects it with Christ and the kingdom.

"Do not bring Christ and the faith down into the worldliness of arrogance, image, and sensuality that tattooing still represents in the world today."

So by this statement can I assume that you are against anything that can be considered vain. Such as hair coloring, stylish haircuts, nail polish, makeup, jewelry (how about a wedding ring), shaving lotion, a flashy car.......?
Paul specifically mentions several of these things.
Just trying to nail down where you are coming from.

 

[OhFarouk]

I love tattoos and I am getting one soon. And just because I do it will not keep me out of heaven. And if that were the case me shaving which I do' would keep me out of heaven too.

Hi Lewis W. You're right to identify where Leviticus 19 refers both to not cutting the corners of beards as well. (Do preachers shave? if they condemn tattoos, but shave, it's hard to see their exegesis, I guess.)

I'm not saying get a tattoo, or get a faith based tattoo, either. But if for example someone under grace gets a Christian fish sign <>< on a wrist while motivated to do it as a witness aid, then it's hard to use exegesis which puts the New Testament believer back under the law, especially since the New Testament doesn't seem to mention any tattoo prohibition explicitly.

Do you have a particular placement or design in mind yet?

Blessings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Deborah13: I see you added a phrase after I replied to the earlier part of your post!

You got plenty of work there as a prayer warrior, right?

Yes, the larger tattoos especially are expensive, though a small one wouldn't be. (I'm not suggesting Lexy get a small one either; though you suggested that she may want to be tattooed eventually.)

God bless your family.

Farouk, you keep saying that you never told anyone to get a tatoo, but as in the passage above, you keep promoting it.
Is there really any difference?

 

[OhFarouk]

Farouk, you keep saying that you never told anyone to get a tatoo, but as in the passage above, you keep promoting it.
Is there really any difference?

Yes there is; in a discussion people talk around a subject, without directly saying to the individual, You should get a tattoo. It's an individual thing; widely acknowledged as such.

What I'm seeing is on the one hand people claiming I'm saying, Get a tattoo! when I'm not. But at the same time finding fault with me for not directly saying 'Don't get a tattoo!' Oh well.

Blessings.

 

[OhFarouk]

hair coloring, stylish haircuts, nail polish, makeup, jewelry ...

Deborah13: How many preachers' wives get nice colored haircuts, and paint their nails and lips and insert studs into their ears? Answer: lots do. I would maybe see a bit of ink as well as being broadly in the same category.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Let me extend that to this matter of hair trimming. We don't know why the law says not to do it. That's why it's hard for obedience to that command to be nothing more than legalism (obedience in the absence of meaningful intent and purpose, or for no intent or purpose at all).

Jethro, when I am having trouble understanding something in the OT or the Law of Moses sometimes I will go to this site.
The Karaite Jews adhere only to the scriptures of the OT, they do NOT use any other teachings from the rabbi's such as the Talmud, they are very strict. This is a partial quote from an article about Lev. 19:27-28. It's a really good article and the explain and quote many other scriptures and cultural things.
Quote
"In summation, Lev 19:27-28, Lev 21:4-5, Dt 14:1-2 prohibit 4 different acts of mourning. These are:
1) Making a bald spot on the head as an act of mourning
2) Shaving the beard as an act of mourning
3) Cutting the skin as an act of mourning
4) Writing on the skin as an act of mourning
Interestingly, the making of tattoos as an act of mourning is the most elusive in the list. It is only mentioned once in Lev 19:28 and then never alluded to again in the Tanach. Reference is made to writing on the flesh as an act of dedication to YHWH (Isa 44:5), but never as an act of mourning."

http://www.karaite-korner.org/shaving.shtml

Isa 44:4-5 NASB
4 And they will spring up among the grass
Like poplars by streams of water.’
5 “This one will say, ‘I am the Lord’s’;
And that one will call on the name of Jacob;
And another will write on his hand, ‘Belonging to the Lord,’
And will name Israel’s name with honor.

According to the Karaite who is very strict in the 'only' scripture, this is talking about tattoos that are a dedication of God.
I just found this and so my final statement, FINALLY (because I wasn't at rest about it before), is that it is not against the Laws of God. So therefore is a matter of what they determine the Lord, in their personal relationship with Him, allows them to do.
I also find it interesting that it is included in the prophecy coming from Isaiah...hmmm?

 

[OhFarouk]

Jethro, when I am having trouble understanding something in the OT or the Law of Moses sometimes I will go to this site.
The Karaite Jews adhere only to the scriptures of the OT, they do NOT use any other teachings from the rabbi's such as the Talmud, they are very strict. This is a partial quote from an article about Lev. 19:27-28. It's a really good article and the explain and quote many other scriptures and cultural things.
Quote
"In summation, Lev 19:27-28, Lev 21:4-5, Dt 14:1-2 prohibit 4 different acts of mourning. These are:
1) Making a bald spot on the head as an act of mourning
2) Shaving the beard as an act of mourning
3) Cutting the skin as an act of mourning
4) Writing on the skin as an act of mourning
Interestingly, the making of tattoos as an act of mourning is the most elusive in the list. It is only mentioned once in Lev 19:28 and then never alluded to again in the Tanach. Reference is made to writing on the flesh as an act of dedication to YHWH (Isa 44:5), but never as an act of mourning."

http://www.karaite-korner.org/shaving.shtml

Isa 44:4-5 NASB
4 And they will spring up among the grass
Like poplars by streams of water.’
5 “This one will say, ‘I am the Lord’s’;
And that one will call on the name of Jacob;
And another will write on his hand, ‘Belonging to the Lord,’
And will name Israel’s name with honor.

According to the Karaite who is very strict in the 'only' scripture, this is talking about tattoos that are a dedication of God.
I just found this and so my final statement, FINALLY (because I was at rest about it before), is that it is not against the Laws of God. So therefore is a matter of what they determine the Lord, in their personal relationship with Him, allows them to do.
I also find it interesting that it is included in the prophecy coming from Isaiah...hmmm?

Deborah13:

I suppose a broad comparison today to what seems to be referred to in Isaiah 44:5 is like getting a Christian fish sign <>< on a wrist, etc., as a witness.

I'm not saying the passage should be taken as a command to go do it; but I'm just wondering if it's broadly comparable?

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13:

I suppose a broad comparison today to what seems to be referred to in Isaiah 44:5 is like getting a Christian fish sign <>< on a wrist, etc., as a witness.

I'm not saying the passage should be taken as a command to go do it; but I'm just wondering if it's broadly comparable?

Blessings.

I would have to say this... the Jews are the best at interpreting Hebrew, Jewish worship practices, and the Law of Moses.