Ordo Salutis - The Order of Salvation

[GodsGrace]

No one does perfectly. If you read your Bible this is apparent.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As often the case, your response was a non-sequitur.

• Someone said God doesn't give commands we can't obey.
• I respond with 6ish verses to the contrary.
• Then you go on a tangent with "So you don't follow Jesus' commands to obey Him?"

You seem to have a habit of making obtuse statements that I need to clarify like:

It is obvious your statement is unfounded/obtuse.



Yes, they probably do but your previous statement showed that you don't know how to properly use the word as I pointed out. You said

It is obvious that every denomination stands alone and yet you imply Reform Theology only stands alone whereas all denominations stand alone from other denominations ... that's why their called "denominations'. Your statement is valueless.



LOL ... I see you still don't get it.



It tells me you argumentation is faulty .... "BASIC biblical values" is an undefined, obtuse statement.
You keep making generalizations with not scripture to back you up. I'll help you out. Try something like... Reformed Theology said "X" and this contradicts scripture.


Aside: What denomination do you belong too. My guess is that you won't answer .... I've seen you post sympathetically in the Roman Catholic section.



Everything I said was true. I laid it out with a syllogism to make it easy to be understood.
I repeat:
Premise 1: The bible teaches Jesus is God
Premise 2: Reformed theology teaches that Jesus is God
Premise 3: GodsGrace/Wondering states everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible.
Conclusion: GodsGrace/Wondering does not believe Jesus is God ... or she is confused and when confronted with her statement would like to rephrase it .... (Aside: I actually believe Wondering believes Jesus is God, she just didn't think through what she was saying again)

Which premise is false? If all the premises are true then why does the Conclusion not follow? Simple logic. Why would TOS rules be in conflict with truthful ideas?
The problem is that you are making unsubstantiated statements. You need to think before you say things like: "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible'. The Calvinism section lets one speak his understanding of truth ... that's probably why this safe haven doesn't ban you for trolling as when you said things like "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible".

Since I'm so non-understanding about everything....
why don't you just stop posting to me as I often also do not answer your posts to me?

I know the theology of the following:
Nazarene
Assembly of God
Catholic
Reformed

Catholic and reformed and Nazarene more than Assembly of God.

Your entire post makes no sense BTW.

You want to discuss words.
I don't.

You don't wish to discuss your theology because it doesn't make sense and it's difficult to defend.

And with that...

 

[GodsGrace]

No one does perfectly. If you read your Bible this is apparent.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As often the case, your response was a non-sequitur.

• Someone said God doesn't give commands we can't obey.
• I respond with 6ish verses to the contrary.
• Then you go on a tangent with "So you don't follow Jesus' commands to obey Him?"

You seem to have a habit of making obtuse statements that I need to clarify like:

It is obvious your statement is unfounded/obtuse.



Yes, they probably do but your previous statement showed that you don't know how to properly use the word as I pointed out. You said

It is obvious that every denomination stands alone and yet you imply Reform Theology only stands alone whereas all denominations stand alone from other denominations ... that's why their called "denominations'. Your statement is valueless.



LOL ... I see you still don't get it.



It tells me you argumentation is faulty .... "BASIC biblical values" is an undefined, obtuse statement.
You keep making generalizations with not scripture to back you up. I'll help you out. Try something like... Reformed Theology said "X" and this contradicts scripture.


Aside: What denomination do you belong too. My guess is that you won't answer .... I've seen you post sympathetically in the Roman Catholic section.



Everything I said was true. I laid it out with a syllogism to make it easy to be understood.
I repeat:
Premise 1: The bible teaches Jesus is God
Premise 2: Reformed theology teaches that Jesus is God
Premise 3: GodsGrace/Wondering states everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible.
Conclusion: GodsGrace/Wondering does not believe Jesus is God ... or she is confused and when confronted with her statement would like to rephrase it .... (Aside: I actually believe Wondering believes Jesus is God, she just didn't think through what she was saying again)

Which premise is false? If all the premises are true then why does the Conclusion not follow? Simple logic. Why would TOS rules be in conflict with truthful ideas?
The problem is that you are making unsubstantiated statements. You need to think before you say things like: "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible'. The Calvinism section lets one speak his understanding of truth ... that's probably why this safe haven doesn't ban you for trolling as when you said things like "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible".

PS
Everything reformed theology teaches is contrary to what the bible teaches.

 

[jasonc]

PS
Everything reformed theology teaches is contrary to what the bible teaches.

Ok that includes the Trinity ,

Jesus being the only way ..

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok that includes the Trinity ,

Jesus being the only way ..

We're discussing something specific here.

Not the Trinity but the Ordo Salutis.

 

[jasonc]

We're discussing something specific here.

Not the Trinity but the Ordo Salutis.

You said everything the reformed teaches .
They even called you out on that .

Why is it with you all means all ,all the time but then everything simply doesn't to the reformed?

So unless you are not a Catholic you are a heretic ?

Mainline as you define it is strange .

Lutheran's are reformed in a sense

 

[GodsGrace]

You said everything the reformed teaches .
They even called you out on that .

Why is it with you all means all ,all the time but then everything simply doesn't to the reformed?

So unless you are not a Catholic you are a heretic ?

Mainline as you define it is strange .

Lutheran's are reformed in a sense

Everything the reformed teach that pertains to this thread is false and heretical.

Not everything they teach is heretical.
They teach that Jesus is God.
THAT is not heretical...but it's not being discussed right now.

Mainline means every other denomination, not only Catholic -although they would fall into that category.

So does GOD LOVED THE WHOLE WORLD mean that God loved the Whole world or just part of it?

 

[GodsGrace]

I just thought of something I ran into in a Sunday School class a long time ago. This is from Peter not Jesus.
2Pe 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

And then he says:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

And a lady in the class said "well, I certainly don't know of anybody who never stumbles." as if implying that it is impossible. I said in my head "this is a if/then proposition. If you don't know anybody who never stumbles, it is because you don't know anybody who "does these things." I don't know anybody who does either. Even born again Christians cannot consistently "do those things."

Who said they do?
Didn't Jesus make a way for those that stumble?
John 20:23 Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sin.

What I stated is that God does not COMMAND someone to do something they cannot do.
For instance, it does not say anywhere in the NT that we are not to sin EVEN ONE TIME.
Jesus knew we would sin at times.
(but we are not to follow the flesh - different concept).

If God commands everyone to repent...
it means He knows that it is possible to repent.
In fact, the NT states many times that we are to repent.


Matthew 4:17 Jesus said:
Repent for the Kingdom of God is near.

Why would Jesus tell us to repent if He knew it was impossible?
This shows that it is WE who are to repent, so that God can choose us.
God chooses, but based on conditions He has set that we are able to respond to if we so wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was only really talking to His sheep.

John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Jesus didn't say things like this to those who didn't believe Him.

Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

I agree with the above and so does every other Christian.
There are two types of persons:
The one who believes God exists and thus believes His words.
The one who does not believe God exists, or - at least - is not interested in pleasing Him. These persons do not hear God's words.

In John 8:43 Jesus is speaking to the Jews that decided NOT to believe in Jesus. This is the type of person that does not hear because he does not want to believe.....

We hear, and then we decide if we wish to believe or not.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

The word of God cannot cause conflict.
What you posted causes conflict.

The default worldview of everybody is naturally that they have unfettered free will and that even God cannot interfere with a man's free will. By cannot, I mean cannot morally interfere. He is a monster if He chooses some to be saved and not others.

In fact, God gave man free will and He will only interfere with it IF He believes it is within His plan for mankind. If He intervened all of the time, we would no longer have free will.

I agree with the rest of the above.

So when people come to passages like the above, they will not accept that they really mean what they sound like. There must be some other explanation, so they look for "whosoever will's" and things like "commands to believe" as a escape to wipe away their fears that Calvinists just might be right.

There are explanations for the passages you posted which do not create any conflict in the NT.
I gave you one....
Every single verse you post has an explanation for it that is not calvinist in nature and that causes no conflict within the NT.

I have heard countless people say that they could never worship a God that saves some He chooses and lets millions be born just to die and spend eternity in Hell. So, they, just like Biden and the Democrats in regards to Trump, must demonize anybody who believe this.

I simply one day decided to let the chips fall where they may and take God at His Word even if everybody else I know says that this God is a monster.

I don't demonize anybody.
What I say is that THEY are demonizing GOD.
God is loving, merciful and just.

All 3 attributes are taken away by reformed theology.
God passes over no one but gives to everyone the opportunity to be saved.

Why would there be a heaven and a hell if it's God that decides where each one of us will end up?

Isn't it rather harsh of Him to create some specifically for wrath and pass over them giving them no opportunity for salvation?

This is just not the God that the rest of Christiandom knows and loves.

 

[jasonc]

Everything the reformed teach that pertains to this thread is false and heretical.

Not everything they teach is heretical.
They teach that Jesus is God.
THAT is not heretical...but it's not being discussed right now.

Mainline means every other denomination, not only Catholic -although they would fall into that category.

So does GOD LOVED THE WHOLE WORLD mean that God loved the Whole world or just part of it?

I don't consider Catholics mainline .

You can't argue that they are when ,

And God saw Mary and made Only Her sinless .surely he could have made all men after Adam that way and then say well mary .

Only those that are sick need Jesus .

Mary didn't sin.she didn't need to fear an angel as the fact is there is no separation from God .

God loved Mary more then anyone else .

Most biblical ?

Say queen of heaven ? Jesus as a boy with her

 

[jasonc]

I'm not a five pointer .I attend one as led .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everything reformed theology teaches is contrary to what the bible teaches.

if that is true then the following conclusion can be made:
Premise 1: The bible teaches Jesus is God
Premise 2: Reformed theology teaches that Jesus is God
Premise 3: GodsGrace/Wondering states "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible".
Conclusion: GodsGrace/Wondering does not believe Jesus is God ... or she is confused and when confronted with her statement would like to rephrase it .... (Aside: I actually believe Wondering believes Jesus is God, she just didn't think through what she was saying again)

Again, you need to use words properly to convey what you're trying to say. I know you believe Christ is God, you need to be able to communicate that better.

The word of God cannot cause conflict.

Obviously not true. The various denominations are proof of that.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

According to you, we can be saved without hearing the word of God.

We hear, and then we decide if we wish to believe or not.

True ... but specifically ... God has to regenerate us first which changes our desires ... whereas you believe in the work of self-determining to believe salvificly. Your's a works salvation.

What I stated is that God does not COMMAND someone to do something they cannot do.

Scripture contradicts you:
John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you
Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.
2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God

If God commands everyone to repent...
it means He knows that it is possible to repent.

You can't repent if you never heard of Christ. I know, you think you don't need to know of Christ in order to save yourself ... more work theology

God is loving, merciful and just.

All 3 attributes are taken away by reformed theology.

Untrue ... surprise, surprise

Why would there be a heaven and a hell if it's God that decides where each one of us will end up?

Romans 9:19-24

This is just not the God that the rest of Christiandom knows and loves.

You give God a human personna instead of reading His word and letting God define God.

 

[GodsGrace]

if that is true then the following conclusion can be made:
Premise 1: The bible teaches Jesus is God
Premise 2: Reformed theology teaches that Jesus is God
Premise 3: GodsGrace/Wondering states "everything Reformed theology teaches is contrary to the Bible".
Conclusion: GodsGrace/Wondering does not believe Jesus is God ... or she is confused and when confronted with her statement would like to rephrase it .... (Aside: I actually believe Wondering believes Jesus is God, she just didn't think through what she was saying again)

Again, you need to use words properly to convey what you're trying to say. I know you believe Christ is God, you need to be able to communicate that better.




Obviously not true. The various denominations are proof of that.


According to you, we can be saved without hearing the word of God.



True ... but specifically ... God has to regenerate us first which changes our desires ... whereas you believe in the work of self-determining to believe salvificly. Your's a works salvation.




Scripture contradicts you:
John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you
Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.
2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God



You can't repent if you never heard of Christ. I know, you think you don't need to know of Christ in order to save yourself ... more work theology



Untrue ... surprise, surprise



Romans 9:19-24



You give God a human personna instead of reading His word and letting God define God.

Read 46.

God define God.

That's funny.
Coming from someone that belongs to a denomination that has totally changed the nature of God as revealed in the NT by Jesus,
The Son and God.

I don't recognize your God in Jesus, His last and ultimate revelation.

 

[electedbyhim]

PS
Everything reformed theology teaches is contrary to what the bible teaches.

You keep saying this but never prove it.

 

[Whatever]

God passes over no one but gives to everyone the opportunity to be saved.

You really believe that? What about all the billions of people who never heard the gospel?
I heard one lady say "they will be saved by living up to the light they had." But the way I understand Paul, nobody ever lives up to even the slightest bit of light they have.
Besides that is salvation by works - living up to - not coming as a beggar with nothing to offer.

Why would there be a heaven and a hell if it's God that decides where each one of us will end up?

Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The problem is that people demand that God fits within their logical understanding.

Isn't it rather harsh of Him to create some specifically for wrath and pass over them giving them no opportunity for salvation?

Again, that is the usual reply. If God doesn't do it the way I think, then he is a monster, harsh, grotesque, gruesome
heinous, hideous, horrendous, horrible, horrifying, inhuman, intolerable, obscene, odious, outrageous, preposterous, terrible. vicious.

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Again, a long time ago I decided to let God be who He tells us He is rather than how I think He should be. It's really liberating, not needing to have a to only believe what my little pea brain can comprehend.

 

[electedbyhim]

You really believe that? What about all the billions of people who never heard the gospel?
I heard one lady say "they will be saved by living up to the light they had." But the way I understand Paul, nobody ever lives up to even the slightest bit of light they have.
Besides that is salvation by works - living up to - not coming as a beggar with nothing to offer.


Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The problem is that people demand that God fits within their logical understanding.


Again, that is the usual reply. If God doesn't do it the way I think, then he is a monster, harsh, grotesque, gruesome
heinous, hideous, horrendous, horrible, horrifying, inhuman, intolerable, obscene, odious, outrageous, preposterous, terrible. vicious.

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Again, a long time ago I decided to let God be who He tells us He is rather than how I think He should be. It's really liberating, not needing to have a to only believe what my little pea brain can comprehend.

Excellent.

 

[Iconoclast]

As you know E, I'd love to have this conversation,,,,but not in the Calvinism Forum.

yeah, she can delete your posts on the other forum

Just want to say that it's not the Arminians (whoever that is) and the Catholics that have their own version....
EVERY Protestant denomination does NOT AGREE with your ordo salutis because it's NOT CORRECT.

She is not theologically qualified to comment on this.

 

[Fastfredy0]

She is not theologically qualified to comment on this.

She's trolling the Calvinist section of the forum .... Maybe brightfame52 should clean this up.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

In John 8:43 Jesus is speaking to the Jews that decided NOT to believe in Jesus. This is the type of person that does not hear because he does not want to believe.....

They coulnt believe because they could not hear[spiritually]

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

So if you cannot hear, you cannot believe, simple as that

 

[Iconoclast]

She's trolling the Calvinist section of the forum .... Maybe brightfame52 should clean this up.

Well I have no problem with her trolling where she wants to. Brightflame allows discussion and correction to be offered so I think that works just fine.When we go on the other places she is quick to delete and censor anything that exposes her foolish ,error laden posts.

 

[Iconoclast]

PS
Everything reformed theology teaches is contrary to what the bible teaches.

This is nominated as one of the stupidest posts made in the last decade. She suggests all The Apostles, reformers, puritans, modern day teachers, are all wrong, and instead she and her little posse of followers are biblical