Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

Let's begin by understanding the Greek perfect tense.

From: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/new_testament_greek.htm
"The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action."

From: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm
"The perfect tense has to do with the completed progress of an action and its corresponding finished results. That is, it shows a present state of affairs (from the writer’s perspective), based upon an action in past time (when using the indicative mood)."

So, to summarize from these websites, the perfect tense is about completed action with on-going results.

Now, let's consider this verse:
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Here is the breakdown from www.biblestudymanuals.net -
"you have been saved.." = "este sesosmenoi..."
"este" = "are", 2 pers. pl. pres., active voice, indicative mood = statement of fact
"sesosmenoi" = saved, participle, perfect tense passive voice.

So, the phrase "have been saved" is a perfect tense indicative mood statement.

So, the completed action here is that one is saved as a completed action that has on-going results.

Therefore, the on-going results speaks to the fact that once saved in the perfect tense, the on-going results is that one stays saved.

The passive voice speaks to the fact that the action of salvation is not from oneself, or one's own believing, but, as www.ntgreek.org says: Passive Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.

Therefore, Eph 2:8 is statement of fact, that we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved.

 

[reba]

Staff speaking closed for mod review ....

 

[Mike]

Off to a rocky road already with 3 posts deleted. We'll reboot this from the OP and try again.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Therefore, Eph 2:8 is statement of fact, that we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved.

I have stated time and time before that this "saving faith" is the revelation of who Jesus really is and what really happened to him. You can't unbelieve this kind of faith, so of course you are saved!

You are not walking a balancing act of faith with this revelation. It "is".

There is a lot of debating about "faith". A majority of people have not been given the revelation of Christ. They produce their own faith and that leads to apostasy............which was NEVER saving faith in the first place.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 16:15-17 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

This goes above with the gift of revelation given. Saving faith. I should put this in the Judas thread, because Judas did not have this kind of revelation of Christ.

 

[Pegasus]

Good thread. Thanks for posting.

 

[JLB]

Matthew 16:15-17 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

This goes above with the gift of revelation given. Saving faith. I should put this in the Judas thread, because Judas did not have this kind of revelation of Christ.

Yes please put in the Judas thread.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:66-71

The scripture shows us Peter speaking on behalf of the twelve... we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

"We" includes Judas.


Notice what Jesus said to Peter in the next breath, after Peter's revelation from God the Father.

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You can't unbelieve this kind of faith, so of course you are saved!

Yes, you can un-believe saving faith in Christ's forgiveness. But that hardly has to mean you weren't saved while you had faith in God's forgiveness through Christ. The true believer is safe and secure in Christ as long as he believes (present tense):

" 1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold)

Your argument is that the believer can never stop believing, therefore, he will remain saved. I wish that were true. My tongue talking wife stopped believing. The gift of tongues she had is proof that she really did believe and received the Holy Spirit in salvation (Acts 10:46-47 NASB). But the demands of the faith got to be too much for her and she abandoned the faith (Luke 8:13 NASB), and by her own admission no longer believes.

Biblically, what we see is it's so much a matter of 'truly believing vs. not truly believing' as much as it is a matter of 'strong faith vs. weak faith'. It's important for the believer to have a strong faith--the faith that secures the power of God to keep them until the day of redemption (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB). Faith is what solicits the power of God for you while you wait for the day of salvation when we receive the fullness of the Spirit and everything that salvation includes. For now we live in mortal bodies and have a down payment of the Holy Spirit, not the fullness of it (Ephesians 1:14 NASB).

So, I respect your argument that you have to keep believing to be saved, and that you say all true believers will keep believing. But it's clear, not only from the scriptures themselves, but from actual observable evidence that some true believers will choose to not trust in the forgiveness of God anymore and will return to their old lives.

 

[JLB]

You can't unbelieve this kind of faith, so of course you are saved!

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

This bounces right off because they instantly see this as the person who 'didn't really' believe departing the faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Therefore, Eph 2:8 is statement of fact, that we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved."

I have stated time and time before that this "saving faith" is the revelation of who Jesus really is and what really happened to him. You can't unbelieve this kind of faith, so of course you are saved!

The OP isn't about "faith" in E[ph 2:8 but the perfect tense of "have been saved". We know that WHEN one believes, they are saved. The perfect tense here shows that the results are ongoing. It has nothing to do with "by faith". That's how one gets saved. Not how one stays saved.

You are not walking a balancing act of faith with this revelation. It "is".

I don't understand this sentence or the point trying to be made.

There is a lot of debating about "faith".

This OP isn't about "faith", but about being saved in the perfect tense.

A majority of people have not been given the revelation of Christ. They produce their own faith and that leads to apostasy............which was NEVER saving faith in the first place.

Huh? If one has not been given the revelation of Christ, they whatever "their own faith" is is totally irrelevant, and certainly not saving faith.

And none of this relates to the OP anyway.

 

[FreeGrace]

Good thread. Thanks for posting.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes please put in the Judas thread.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:66-71

The scripture shows us Peter speaking on behalf of the twelve... we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

"We" includes Judas.


Notice what Jesus said to Peter in the next breath, after Peter's revelation from God the Father.

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23
JLB

Could you direct your comments to the OP, please?

 

[JLB]

This bounces right off because they instantly see this as the person who 'didn't really' believe departing the faith.

Depart from, means to "desert" or "fall away" or "become faithless", withdraw one's self from.

• This is the same word that Jesus used in the teaching about the Sower, referring to those who believe for a while, then "fall away".

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• Paul, also used this word to describe those who depart from the living God.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Depart from, Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   
   1. to excite to revolt
      
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
      

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, sadly, LTD has hijacked the thread by trying to change the subject.

Yes, you can un-believe saving faith in Christ's forgiveness. But that hardly has to mean you weren't saved while you had faith in God's forgiveness through Christ. The true believer is safe and secure in Christ as long as he believes (present tense):

Please address the OP and NOT another poster's irrelevant comments. Eph 2:8 says by faith we "have been saved". Sounds like the past tense in English, but in the Greek, it is PERFECT TENSE, and I've included the websites that address the perfect tense.

So please address the issue of the OP; that we have been saved in the perfect tense and what that means. It means we continue to be saved. The present tense of "have been saved" is NOT related to "by faith". Yes, one must believe to be saved, but here, we are saved in the perfect tense, which means on-going results that are not related to "by faith".

So your comment about the need for on-going faith is false.

Your argument is that the believer can never stop believing, therefore, he will remain saved.

Was this addressed to another poster? It is not my argument. Please stick with the OP.

 

[FreeGrace]

LovethroughDove said: ↑
You can't unbelieve this kind of faith, so of course you are saved!

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1JLB

Please take this to another thread, or PM the other poster. None of this is relevant to this OP.

 

[FreeGrace]

This bounces right off because they instantly see this as the person who 'didn't really' believe departing the faith.

OK, back to the OP. Please address the perfect tense of "have been saved".

 

[JLB]

Could you direct your comments to the OP, please?

Yes.

Let's begin by understanding the Greek perfect tense.

From: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/new_testament_greek.htm
"The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action."

From: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm
"The perfect tense has to do with the completed progress of an action and its corresponding finished results. That is, it shows a present state of affairs (from the writer’s perspective), based upon an action in past time (when using the indicative mood)."

So, to summarize from these websites, the perfect tense is about completed action with on-going results.

Now, let's consider this verse:
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Here is the breakdown from www.biblestudymanuals.net -
"you have been saved.." = "este sesosmenoi..."
"este" = "are", 2 pers. pl. pres., active voice, indicative mood = statement of fact
"sesosmenoi" = saved, participle, perfect tense passive voice.

So, the phrase "have been saved" is a perfect tense indicative mood statement.

So, the completed action here is that one is saved as a completed action that has on-going results.

Therefore, the on-going results speaks to the fact that once saved in the perfect tense, the on-going results is that one stays saved.

The passive voice speaks to the fact that the action of salvation is not from oneself, or one's own believing, but, as www.ntgreek.org says: Passive Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.

Therefore, Eph 2:8 is statement of fact, that we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved.

This is commentary: The opinion of man.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This is commentary: The opinion of man.
JLB

So that's your addressing the Greek perfect tense?? That it's just an opinion??

Well, thank you for your opinion. But Greek grammar isn't opinion. Any more than English grammar is "opinion".

Language is a science, not an opinion.

But, since you''ve now given your own opinion, there is nothing else to opine about on this thread.

 

[Runner]

Therefore, Eph 2:8 is statement of fact, that we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved.

It seems to me that in most of these threads you "assume that which is to be proved" as the saying goes. OK, we will agree that Ephesians 2:8 means "we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved." However, you are mentally adding to the verse, "meaning we stayed saved forever, with no possibility of falling away." You are assuming that which is to be proved because it is the way you want things to be, which is what those who assume that which is to be proved always do. What you are doing is classic proof-texting, focusing on verses in isolation, out of the context in which they appear and out of the context of the New Testament as a whole. The occasional "tree" may support OSAS, but the NT "forest" as whole does not. Indeed, even your statement "meaning we stay saved" fudges things a bit in order to support the OSAS position. The verse really doesn't say we "stay" saved but more like "we now remain saved." It's an ambiguous verse that is just as consistent with OS-Not-AS.

It occurred to me that there is sort of a continuum:

• Universalism (everyone is ultimately saved): The way most of us would like things to be - but, alas, one can believe this only if one engages in proof-texting to an absolutely absurd degree and ignores virtually everything Jesus said.
• OSAS: OK, not too bad. Salvation is pretty cheap and easy. And it merely requires a moderate level of proof-texting and Jesus-ignoring.
• OS-Not-AS: Ouch, that's no fun. It is, however, by far the most consistent with the NT forest as a whole and the early Christians' understanding.