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Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

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Yes please put in the Judas thread.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:66-71

The scripture shows us Peter speaking on behalf of the twelve... we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

"We" includes Judas.

Read the scripture a little before what you have posted.

John 6:63-64 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

So JLB, the above was spoken from Jesus's mouth. Jesus knows the heart of a person and knew Judas did not believe, even though he chose him.

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

JLB

Peter had not yet been given the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
 
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Well, sadly, LTD has hijacked the thread by trying to change the subject.

I do think it is relevant to the perfect tense. You are either a born again Spirit filled believer, sealed forever.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Or, you are a teetering on the path of true belief and have not been given the Holy Spirit yet. As I posted in my previous above comment, Jesus knows the inner most thoughts and hearts of people. Not us.
 
Yes, you can un-believe saving faith in Christ's forgiveness. But that hardly has to mean you weren't saved while you had faith in God's forgiveness through Christ.

That kind of seems like an abstract kind of faith. The faith that saves is tangible and hits you in your entire being.

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Here is the perfect tense Freegrace has as the subject). For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


Anyone who has fallen away from the faith, has parts of the Christian faith they have liked........so they stayed........but not this part.

Lots of people have confessed this, but not really believed in their hearts it was 100% absolutely, positively true!
 
Tense in Greek is not as important as mood...and in some cases completely not relevant to the sentence.

Gender/sex is also more important than tense. It's only English language that makes tense a major instead of a minor. Different language, different culture, different customs, and different focus.
 
That kind of seems like an abstract kind of faith. The faith that saves is tangible and hits you in your entire being.

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Here is the perfect tense Freegrace has as the subject). For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


Anyone who has fallen away from the faith, has parts of the Christian faith they have liked........so they stayed........but not this part.

Lots of people have confessed this, but not really believed in their hearts it was 100% absolutely, positively true!
Did you see that I explained that my wife talked in tongues? That proves she had the Holy Spirit in salvation, and that she didn't have some kind of quasi-faith that was inadequate to justify/save. The gifts of the Spirit are only given to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27-28 NASB). She believed for a while, then stopped believing, and, I will point out, lost the gift of tongues. You know, those gifts that many think are irrevocable because of an erroneous, out of context interpretation of Romans 11:28-29 NASB.
 
It seems to me that in most of these threads you "assume that which is to be proved" as the saying goes. OK, we will agree that Ephesians 2:8 means "we have been saved by faith (past action) with on-going results, meaning we stay saved." However, you are mentally adding to the verse, "meaning we stayed saved forever, with no possibility of falling away." You are assuming that which is to be proved because it is the way you want things to be, which is what those who assume that which is to be proved always do. What you are doing is classic proof-texting, focusing on verses in isolation, out of the context in which they appear and out of the context of the New Testament as a whole. The occasional "tree" may support OSAS, but the NT "forest" as whole does not. Indeed, even your statement "meaning we stay saved" fudges things a bit in order to support the OSAS position. The verse really doesn't say we "stay" saved but more like "we now remain saved." It's an ambiguous verse that is just as consistent with OS-Not-AS.

It occurred to me that there is sort of a continuum:
  • Universalism (everyone is ultimately saved): The way most of us would like things to be - but, alas, one can believe this only if one engages in proof-texting to an absolutely absurd degree and ignores virtually everything Jesus said.
  • OSAS: OK, not too bad. Salvation is pretty cheap and easy. And it merely requires a moderate level of proof-texting and Jesus-ignoring.
  • OS-Not-AS: Ouch, that's no fun. It is, however, by far the most consistent with the NT forest as a whole and the early Christians' understanding.

More drill down on your definitions above:

Universalism: Universalism is the teaching that all people will be saved. Some say that it is through the atonement of Jesus that all will ultimately be reconciled to God. Others just say that all will go to heaven sooner or later, whether or not they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lived again in the millennium (as some "Christian universalists" claim) or some future state. Additionally, a few universalists even maintain that Satan and all demons will likewise be reconciled to God.

https://carm.org/universalism-is

OSAS: "Once saved always saved" is the position that when a person becomes a Christian he can never lose his salvation. The debate on this teaching has been raging within Christian circles for centuries. Many believe it is possible to lose one's salvation, while others believe it is not. Both use the Bible to support their beliefs.

https://carm.org/what-is-once-saved-always-saved

"OSAS" is IMO a modern term which has no basis in any creeds or confessions of faith. You may see such on some church websites in the statement of faith. What we are truly discussing is The Perseverance of the Saints, which is described in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAPTER XVII.
Of The Perseverance of the Saints.


I. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free-will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

III. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalancy of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; ad for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and prevalancy others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.


I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html

This version has footnotes with Scripture proofs:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

I think it important we all understand the premise for many of these discussions including the OP.

Now for the OP:

The first question I would pose to the group is if Salvation, all of it----justification, sanctification and glorification---is God's Sovereign work? Or is it a mixture of God's will and man's will (semi-pelagianism) or can mankind keep the law perfectly (Pelagianism)?

From the three above stem all the ancient, modern and post-modern beliefs within and without Christianity reference salvation. Two of the above were condemned by early Church Councils. St. Augustine addressed and condemned Pelagianism; The Council of Orange condemned semi-Pelagianism.

That leaves us with Salvation as a Sovereign act of God.
 
Read the scripture a little before what you have posted.

John 6:63-64 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

So JLB, the above was spoken from Jesus's mouth. Jesus knows the heart of a person and knew Judas did not believe, even though he chose him.



Peter had not yet been given the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Indeed. Many are called but few are chosen. (Matt 24:14)
 
So please address the issue of the OP; that we have been saved in the perfect tense and what that means. It means we continue to be saved.
Of course people who believe are saved and continue to be saved. That salvation is completed and ongoing until something happens to end it.

In contrast to the Perfect tense, you can't use the Greek Present tense to describe the result of believing because that would be used for results that are presently in the process of happening. But as it is, the person who has believed, and is believing now, has results that are completed (as much as they will be in this life). That's why one would use the Perfect tense to describe the results of that believing, not the Present tense. The Perfect tense is used to show a completed but ongoing result. It does not indicate that the ongoing result can never end. It simply means the result is complete and ongoing and is not in some phase of change.

You won't learn much from Greek word studies. We have the plain words of scripture to show that the Perfect tense does not mean the completed results of an action can not end or be reversed. Defining the Perfect tense that way instantly contradicts and nullifies the plain words of scripture (i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).
 
Tense in Greek is not as important as mood...and in some cases completely not relevant to the sentence.

Gender/sex is also more important than tense. It's only English language that makes tense a major instead of a minor. Different language, different culture, different customs, and different focus.
I was speaking to a theologian about 3 weeks ago and brought up this question of the tense.
He speaks koine Greek and Hebrew and Greek and Latin and about 4 or 5 other languages. He teaches.
He agrees with what you've said above.
But the beat goes on...
 
More drill down on your definitions above:

Universalism: Universalism is the teaching that all people will be saved. Some say that it is through the atonement of Jesus that all will ultimately be reconciled to God. Others just say that all will go to heaven sooner or later, whether or not they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lived again in the millennium (as some "Christian universalists" claim) or some future state. Additionally, a few universalists even maintain that Satan and all demons will likewise be reconciled to God.

https://carm.org/universalism-is

OSAS: "Once saved always saved" is the position that when a person becomes a Christian he can never lose his salvation. The debate on this teaching has been raging within Christian circles for centuries. Many believe it is possible to lose one's salvation, while others believe it is not. Both use the Bible to support their beliefs.

https://carm.org/what-is-once-saved-always-saved

"OSAS" is IMO a modern term which has no basis in any creeds or confessions of faith. You may see such on some church websites in the statement of faith. What we are truly discussing is The Perseverance of the Saints, which is described in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAPTER XVII.
Of The Perseverance of the Saints.


I. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free-will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

III. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalancy of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; ad for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and prevalancy others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.


I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html

This version has footnotes with Scripture proofs:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

I think it important we all understand the premise for many of these discussions including the OP.

Now for the OP:

The first question I would pose to the group is if Salvation, all of it----justification, sanctification and glorification---is God's Sovereign work? Or is it a mixture of God's will and man's will (semi-pelagianism) or can mankind keep the law perfectly (Pelagianism)?

From the three above stem all the ancient, modern and post-modern beliefs within and without Christianity reference salvation. Two of the above were condemned by early Church Councils. St. Augustine addressed and condemned Pelagianism; The Council of Orange condemned semi-Pelagianism.

That leaves us with Salvation as a Sovereign act of God.
:clap

Great Post.

Justification - Only God
Sanctification - Requires man's cooperation
Glorification - Only God

Wondering
 
From the three above stem all the ancient, modern and post-modern beliefs within and without Christianity reference salvation. Two of the above were condemned by early Church Councils. St. Augustine addressed and condemned Pelagianism; The Council of Orange condemned semi-Pelagianism.

That leaves us with Salvation as a Sovereign act of God.

It was actually little old moi who pointed out, repeatedly, that the debate being conducted here and on other threads has raged for centuries, each position has adherents at the highest levels of Christian scholarship, and no consensus is going to be reached on an Internet discussion forum. That being said, it seems to me that the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian controversies really related more to man's ability or inability to respond to God's offer of salvation in the first place than to the so-called perseverance of the saints. If one is a five-point Calvinist, of course, all of these matters are settled in a rather black-and-white way - but huge swaths of Christendom are not Calvinist at all, and those whose theologies date from the earliest days of Christianity (e.g., Orthodox and Catholic) regard Calvinism as badly misguided. Voltaire once said about reincarnation, "It is no more astounding to be born twice than to be born once." Likewise, I as a non-Calvinist find it no more astounding that a person could fall away and ultimately reject God's offer of salvation than that he could accept it in the first place. I do not see the possibility of falling away as impinging on God's sovereignty - any more than the fact that millions of kind and compassionate Hindus and Buddhists are doomed to spend eternity in Hell (if that's what you believe) impinges on God's sovereignty. But I do see that a fair reading of the NT as a whole points pretty decisively toward the conclusion that one who has once believed can indeed fall away.
 
I do think it is relevant to the perfect tense. You are either a born again Spirit filled believer, sealed forever.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Or, you are a teetering on the path of true belief and have not been given the Holy Spirit yet. As I posted in my previous above comment, Jesus knows the inner most thoughts and hearts of people. Not us.

An interesting and most important observation. When we post an exegesis of Holy Scriptures we are dealing with objective Truth. When we are discussing our walk with Christ, that in itself is a subjective reality based on the objective Truth.
 
:clap

Great Post.

Justification - Only God
Sanctification - Requires man's cooperation
Glorification - Only God

Wondering

All of the above require us to walk by faith and not by sight.

Therefore, God can only Sanctify us. As He promises to do (Philippians 1:6) and:

Romans 8:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 
Did you see that I explained that my wife talked in tongues? That proves she had the Holy Spirit in salvation, and that she didn't have some kind of quasi-faith that was inadequate to justify/save.
What foreign tongue did she talk in and what did she say in that foreign tongue?
 
It was actually little old moi who pointed out, repeatedly, that the debate being conducted here and on other threads has raged for centuries, each position has adherents at the highest levels of Christian scholarship, and no consensus is going to be reached on an Internet discussion forum. That being said, it seems to me that the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian controversies really related more to man's ability or inability to respond to God's offer of salvation in the first place than to the so-called perseverance of the saints. If one is a five-point Calvinist, of course, all of these matters are settled in a rather black-and-white way - but huge swaths of Christendom are not Calvinist at all, and those whose theologies date from the earliest days of Christianity (e.g., Orthodox and Catholic) regard Calvinism as badly misguided. Voltaire once said about reincarnation, "It is no more astounding to be born twice than to be born once." Likewise, I as a non-Calvinist find it no more astounding that a person could fall away and ultimately reject God's offer of salvation than that he could accept it in the first place. I do not see the possibility of falling away as impinging on God's sovereignty - any more than the fact that millions of kind and compassionate Hindus and Buddhists are doomed to spend eternity in Hell (if that's what you believe) impinges on God's sovereignty. But I do see that a fair reading of the NT as a whole points pretty decisively toward the conclusion that one who has once believed can indeed fall away.

And what of the corresponding and more dense passages which assure a believer who is sealed is also secure? I'm sure you do not see such as a contradiction. The most convincing texts of security come from the Holy direct words of Christ Jesus in the Gospels. Some have posted them here many times. The rebuttal is always Judas. However, Christ makes it clear Judas was selected to fulfill the Scriptures (John 17:12). That is certainly a 'pre-determination' from a human standpoint, no? There are others. The Apostle John tells us:

1 John 2:

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


I believe the Apostle John hits an important distinction with the above. In that, those who left denied the Father and the Son. He called them anti-christ, as today we might call them anti-theists or atheists. I think when we talk reference 'falling away' 'falling from grace' we need to look at the above verses from 1 John 2. John is clearly explaining what we see in Hebrews 6, which is apostasy. The church members John speaks of in 1 John 2 are those who would deny Christ is Messiah; and their departure makes manifest their heart by the action of their 'feet' leaving.

In contrast to the believer who with their heart and lips proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior and move not only their mouth but their 'feet' to be baptized and sealed committed to follow Him and emulate Him.

The statement above, I would gather you would agree is in good standing with the entire message of Redemption in the Holy Scriptures.

If interested we can then discuss 'what of those who sin after God's saving Grace and Holy Spirit are poured out and fills them.' I think that is what many here want to discuss but don't.
 
Of course people who believe are saved and continue to be saved. That salvation is completed and ongoing until something happens to end it.

In contrast to the Perfect tense, you can't use the Greek Present tense to describe the result of believing because that would be used for results that are presently in the process of happening. But as it is, the person who has believed, and is believing now, has results that are completed (as much as they will be in this life). That's why one would use the Perfect tense to describe the results of that believing, not the Present tense. The Perfect tense is used to show a completed but ongoing result. It does not indicate that the ongoing result can never end. It simply means the result is complete and ongoing and is not in some phase of change.

You won't learn much from Greek word studies. We have the plain words of scripture to show that the Perfect tense does not mean the completed results of an action can not end or be reversed. Defining the Perfect tense that way instantly contradicts and nullifies the plain words of scripture (i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

The context of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 of course being, believing in the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ. As the following verses throughout the chapter confirm. If someone denies the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ, then they believe in vain is what Paul is saying. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the core of Christianity.
 
Did you see that I explained that my wife talked in tongues? That proves she had the Holy Spirit in salvation, and that she didn't have some kind of quasi-faith that was inadequate to justify/save. The gifts of the Spirit are only given to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27-28 NASB). She believed for a while, then stopped believing, and, I will point out, lost the gift of tongues. You know, those gifts that many think are irrevocable because of an erroneous, out of context interpretation of Romans 11:28-29 NASB.
I'm sorry Jethro but I have to ask you this.
You have spoken about your wife speaking in tongues before to say that this PROVES that she had the Holy Spirit.
One doesn't have to speak in tongues or require any proof that they have the Holy Spirit.
What "proves" it is a change in the persons life.
I don't speak in tongues and many I know don't. Do they not have the Holy Spirit?

Wondering
 
I'm sorry Jethro but I have to ask you this.
You have spoken about your wife speaking in tongues before to say that this PROVES that she had the Holy Spirit.
One doesn't have to speak in tongues or require any proof that they have the Holy Spirit.
What "proves" it is a change in the persons life.
I don't speak in tongues and many I know don't. Do they not have the Holy Spirit?

Wondering

Pastor John Piper has a great sermon on the difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and being clothed with Power.

http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-can-we-be-clothed-with-power

http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/tongues-of-fire-and-the-fullness-of-god
 
I'm sorry Jethro but I have to ask you this.
You have spoken about your wife speaking in tongues before to say that this PROVES that she had the Holy Spirit.
One doesn't have to speak in tongues or require any proof that they have the Holy Spirit.
What "proves" it is a change in the persons life.
I don't speak in tongues and many I know don't. Do they not have the Holy Spirit?

Wondering
I wonder if you are misunderstanding the point. The way I read it, he's saying that her ability to speak in tongues indicates the Holy Spirit within her. He is not saying that one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit must speak in tongues but if one can speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit must be involved.
 
I wonder if you are misunderstanding the point. The way I read it, he's saying that her ability to speak in tongues indicates the Holy Spirit within her. He is not saying that one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit must speak in tongues but if one can speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit must be involved.
I don't misunderstand his point.
I just wonder why he thinks it's so important; it shouldn't be.
 

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