Salvation with Security - Parts 1, 2, 3

[Eugene]

If we observe the condition of Paul we should be able to see one party who can not be condemned for any reason and another entirely different party that can not be condoned for any reason. And that's exactly why this is difficult territory to discuss because the other party actively resists the things of God in Christ that are of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above there is Paul and there is the "no longer I," openly revealed. The messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh can not be condoned for any reasons and Paul can likewise but conversely not be condemned for any reasons.

Dear Brother smaller, let’s do believe scripture. I’m easily deceived attempting to interpret Hebrew and Greek, but so are the experts that put out translations, and their ideas of a correct reading most times seem to agree with what they individually believe the context to be, and I suppose it to be associated with the doctrines their church assembly believes.

Starting in my new life as a babe in Christ, I grew in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and built upon the scriptures I thought I understood. I do believe in chastisement, and condemnation by our conscience.

Examples:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life . .

As one body in Christ, we may believe many things differently, but God has received us just as He does them in Rom 14:3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

On such things I grew to believe that since we are not saved by works of the law (Gal 2:16), are we to retain our salvation through the ministration of death written and engraven in stones (2 Cor 3:7). Now there is much to be gained in walking after the Spirit instead of lusting after the flesh (Rom 8:4), and that is to qualify to being a part of Jesus’ bride we read of in Rev 19:7-8. She has made herself ready by her works of righteousness, or righteous works or deeds. This is the reward available of not following the lusts of the flesh.

Anyhow this is but a bit of what I walk after with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Be blessed in Christ Jesus.

 

[smaller]

Dear Brother smaller, let’s do believe scripture. I’m easily deceived attempting to interpret Hebrew and Greek, but so are the experts that put out translations, and their ideas of a correct reading most times seem to agree with what they individually believe the context to be, and I suppose it to be associated with the doctrines their church assembly believes.

Starting in my new life as a babe in Christ, I grew in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and built upon the scriptures I thought I understood. I do believe in chastisement, and condemnation by our conscience.

Examples:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life . .

As one body in Christ, we may believe many things differently, but God has received us just as He does them in Rom 14:3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

On such things I grew to believe that since we are not saved by works of the law (Gal 2:16), are we to retain our salvation through the ministration of death written and engraven in stones (2 Cor 3:7). Now there is much to be gained in walking after the Spirit instead of lusting after the flesh (Rom 8:4), and that is to qualify to being a part of Jesus’ bride we read of in Rev 19:7-8. She has made herself ready by her works of righteousness, or righteous works or deeds. This is the reward available of not following the lusts of the flesh.

Anyhow this is but a bit of what I walk after with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Be blessed in Christ Jesus.

If you thought I disagreed with you you weren't reading correctly. I clearly stated that Paul could not be condemned for any reason. You appear to concur.

 

[smaller]

There was never any messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

Obviously you and I read quite differently:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Right there is the fulcrum for ADVERSE JUDGMENTS, and NOT to Paul.

 

[By Grace]

Those that follow the teaching of eternal security will over look the important aspect of present tense verbs, In Rom 10:10 for example "believeth" is present tense. The believing must conditioanlly ongoing and sustained to be saved for if one quits believing he will be lost.

That verse has a context, and we need not be making "proof specks" that are not a part of the larger picture.

Romans 10: 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

It should be apparent to all that the context of the verse, meaning the things before it, and after it are about how one becomes saved, and there is nothing in there about either maintaining nor loosing one's salvation. As to the poster making something about the present tense, if the word "believes" were simply written in English, then he would be correct. But because the Koine Greek grammar is more complicated than that, Greek verbs (and participles) all have tense, mood and voice.

Tense is easily understood by any speaker of English
Voice indicates how the person is related to the action (Dana & Mantey Pg 155) and the passive voice indicates that the subject is the recipient of the action (D&M pg 157)
The indicative mood is that of making an assertion: something happened.

In verse 10, the verb translated "believes" is a present, passive indicative verb.
It is present, meaning it is happening; the person believes with his heart.

In verse 10, the verb translated "believes" is an indicative mood.
It is a statement of fact, not a probability nor a command

In verse 10, the verb translated "believes" is a passive mood.
The person is the RECIPIENT of the action of belief, and that really floored me. I was expecting to see something different.

In verse 10, the verb translated "confesses" is also a present passive indicative verb, so the same grammar rules apply as above

In verse 10, the words translated "justified" and "saved" are nouns, which have no relation to time, such as in the case for the verbs.

So from what you posted, I can understand that your theology may be more Arminian than others may be, but we must be bound by the text of the Scriptures. We cannot change what Paul wrote in order to make it fit into our theology.

Therefore, with all respect possible, and with no condescension or "lording it over you" I ask you to reconsider your understanding of that verse, and have it conform to the passive voice that Holy Spirit had Paul write it.

 

[JLB]

Obviously you and I read quite differently:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Right there is the fulcrum for ADVERSE JUDGMENTS, and NOT to Paul.

Which has nothing to do with walking in the Spirit, so that you will not practice the works of the flesh.

Which has nothing to do with crucifying the flesh, with it's lust's and desires.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:25

You seem to think that Satan is somehow more powerful than, "He that is in me".

...because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

The wicked one can not even touch us, much less be in our flesh, if we keep ourselves.

Setting your mind on the things of the Spirit, and spending time alone with the Lord, worshiping Him, and praying in the Spirit, as well as reading and meditating on the word of God, and being filled with His Spirit is how live and walk in the Spirit.

Being careful with what we see with our eyes, and hear with our ears, so that we don't become polluted with the things of the world, and grieve the Holy Spirit, is a lifestyle choice that those who desire to live a life crucified to this world, must choose to make.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Romans 13:14

 

[chessman]

The friction, the conflict, the contrariness between these two, the flesh and the Spirit, REMAINS for all of us. There is no remedy.

Sure there is, it's called the resurrection of our flesh. Looking forward to it.

 

[smaller]

Sure there is, it's called the resurrection of our flesh. Looking forward to it.

Quite unrelated to the observations made. Our works can't get over that hurdle, which was the point.