Understanding Mary - Queen of Heaven

[Mungo]

There is no formal dogma that Mary is Queen of Heaven but Many Popes have used this tile of Mary, including Pope Pius XII who wrote an Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam in which he proclaimed a feast day in honour of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

Introduction
“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

The Davidic King
Let us therefore start with Jesus.

God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of king’s mother.

#1 In a monarchical system a woman may have the title Queen for one of three reasons.
We can see examples of this in both the recent history in the UK and in the Bible. I will give examples from the Bible.

1. The woman is a ruler in her own right. For example the Queen of Sheba (see 1Kg 10)

2. The woman is the wife of the reigning king. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus had many concubines, but gave one of them the honour of being designated Queen, first Vashti, but then Esther.

3. The woman is the mother of the reigning king. In the kingdom of David the king might have multiple wives, so the practice was to give the title Queen Mother to the mother of the king. This was instituted by Solomon the son of David.

We see this first established by Solomon when he greets Bathsheba who comes to ask a favour. He pays her homage and sits her on a throne at his right hand (a position of honour) (1Kg 2:19)

After Solomon the kingdom splits into the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the Southern kingdom (Judah). After this there were 20 kings in Israel before the deportation to Assyria. For none of these is the mother of the king mentioned.

There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. This in itself shows that the king’s mother was a significant figure.

The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). Note the Hebrew is gebirah – queen. The KJV just says queen but more modern translations say queen mother as she is the mother of the king.

#2 This role of queen mother was an established role in the kingdom.
“He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Asherah” (1Kg 15:13)

#3 The queen mother sat on a throne at the right of her son
“So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)

#4 The queen mother had authority.
Firstly she sat on the right of the king which is the position of authority.

There is one particularly interesting woman Athalia, who was the mother of Ahazier the sixth king of Judah. After her son was killed, she killed all the royal family (except one baby who was hidden from her) and assumed power in her own right. She ruled as Queen for six years until she was killed and her grandson Joash installed as king at the age of seven. She would not have been able to do that if she was not in a recognised position of authority to start with.

We can also see the important position of the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18-20
“Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. The cities of the Negeb are shut up, with none to open them; all Judah is taken into exile, wholly taken into exile. "Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’”

Three points to note here.
Firstly Jeremiah is told to address both the king and queen mother. They are both to be punished by God.

Secondly both the king and queen mother are to come down from their thrones and to lose their crowns. They are both royalty in the kingdom.

Thirdly God says to them: “Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?”

They are both responsible for the flock, the sheep – i.e. the people that God entrusted to them. God had given the queen mother responsibilities for the people, not just the king. That does not mean that the queen mother was equal in authority to the king. The authority she had was derived from and under the king. She was still subject to him.

#5 Jesus is the true Davidic king with an eternal kingdom. That kingdom is based in Heaven.
“Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom does not belong to this world.’” (Jn 18:36)

“Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness…….. He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Rev 19:11-16)

#6 Mary is the mother of Jesus As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven.
As such she has some responsibility for the flock.

We also read in Revelation:
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

Elizabeth
Also there is a hint of Mary being the gebirah in Lk 1:43 when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaims “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth has recognised that the child in Mary’s womb is God, the promised Messiah, the Son of David and that Mary is therefore the gebirah. She is astonished that such an important person should come to her.

 

[WIP]

“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ,

In all things? Interesting.

 

[JLB]

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28



JLB

 

[jaybo]

There is no formal dogma that Mary is Queen of Heaven but Many Popes have used this tile of Mary, including Pope Pius XII who wrote an Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam in which he proclaimed a feast day in honour of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

Introduction
“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

The Davidic King
Let us therefore start with Jesus.

God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of king’s mother.

#1 In a monarchical system a woman may have the title Queen for one of three reasons.
We can see examples of this in both the recent history in the UK and in the Bible. I will give examples from the Bible.

1. The woman is a ruler in her own right. For example the Queen of Sheba (see 1Kg 10)

2. The woman is the wife of the reigning king. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus had many concubines, but gave one of them the honour of being designated Queen, first Vashti, but then Esther.

3. The woman is the mother of the reigning king. In the kingdom of David the king might have multiple wives, so the practice was to give the title Queen Mother to the mother of the king. This was instituted by Solomon the son of David.

We see this first established by Solomon when he greets Bathsheba who comes to ask a favour. He pays her homage and sits her on a throne at his right hand (a position of honour) (1Kg 2:19)

After Solomon the kingdom splits into the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the Southern kingdom (Judah). After this there were 20 kings in Israel before the deportation to Assyria. For none of these is the mother of the king mentioned.

There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. This in itself shows that the king’s mother was a significant figure.

The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). Note the Hebrew is gebirah – queen. The KJV just says queen but more modern translations say queen mother as she is the mother of the king.

#2 This role of queen mother was an established role in the kingdom.
“He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Asherah” (1Kg 15:13)

#3 The queen mother sat on a throne at the right of her son
“So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)

#4 The queen mother had authority.
Firstly she sat on the right of the king which is the position of authority.

There is one particularly interesting woman Athalia, who was the mother of Ahazier the sixth king of Judah. After her son was killed, she killed all the royal family (except one baby who was hidden from her) and assumed power in her own right. She ruled as Queen for six years until she was killed and her grandson Joash installed as king at the age of seven. She would not have been able to do that if she was not in a recognised position of authority to start with.

We can also see the important position of the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18-20
“Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. The cities of the Negeb are shut up, with none to open them; all Judah is taken into exile, wholly taken into exile. "Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’”

Three points to note here.
Firstly Jeremiah is told to address both the king and queen mother. They are both to be punished by God.

Secondly both the king and queen mother are to come down from their thrones and to lose their crowns. They are both royalty in the kingdom.

Thirdly God says to them: “Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?”

They are both responsible for the flock, the sheep – i.e. the people that God entrusted to them. God had given the queen mother responsibilities for the people, not just the king. That does not mean that the queen mother was equal in authority to the king. The authority she had was derived from and under the king. She was still subject to him.

#5 Jesus is the true Davidic king with an eternal kingdom. That kingdom is based in Heaven.
“Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom does not belong to this world.’” (Jn 18:36)

“Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness…….. He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Rev 19:11-16)

#6 Mary is the mother of Jesus As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven.
As such she has some responsibility for the flock.

We also read in Revelation:
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

Elizabeth
Also there is a hint of Mary being the gebirah in Lk 1:43 when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaims “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth has recognised that the child in Mary’s womb is God, the promised Messiah, the Son of David and that Mary is therefore the gebirah. She is astonished that such an important person should come to her.

Re #6, "Mary is the mother of Jesus As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven" -- but she is not given that tile, even once, in Scripture.

Revelation 12:5b-6, " Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne, and she fled into the wilderness where a place had been prepared for her by God, so she could be taken care of for 1,260 days." This is part of John's vision. Mary did not flee into the wilderness for 3:5 years. She and Joseph and Jesus went to Egypt until it was safe to return."

It is important to understand what Scripture says in context.

 

[Mungo]

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28



JLB

Do you have any comments on the OP rather than digress onto something else?

 

[Mungo]

Re #6, "Mary is the mother of Jesus As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven" -- but she is not given that tile, even once, in Scripture.

Irrelevant.
And moreover she would not gain that title until she was actually in heaven. But John saw a woman in heaven with a crown on her head. So the woman he saw must have been a queen and she was in heaven. What more do you want?

Revelation 12:5b-6, " Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne, and she fled into the wilderness where a place had been prepared for her by God, so she could be taken care of for 1,260 days." This is part of John's vision. Mary did not flee into the wilderness for 3:5 years. She and Joseph and Jesus went to Egypt until it was safe to return."

It is important to understand what Scripture says in context.

“and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5)
Who is the child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron? The answer to that is Jesus - see psalm 2
If you are not taking that into account then you are not taking all the context into account.

Here is something else:
Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. I have shown that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).
The it says in Rev 12:1 that the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.

Any other issues with my post? Or do you agree with the rest?

 

[jaybo]

Irrelevant.
And moreover she would not gain that title until she was actually in heaven. But John saw a woman in heaven with a crown on her head. So the woman he saw must have been a queen and she was in heaven. What more do you want?

“and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5)
Who is the child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron? The answer to that is Jesus - see psalm 2
If you are not taking that into account then you are not taking all the context into account.

Here is something else:
Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. I have shown that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).
The it says in Rev 12:1 that the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.

Any other issues with my post? Or do you agree with the rest?

Revelation is John's vision. Simply because he sees this (in his vision)) -- "Then a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman 1) clothed with the sun, and with 2) the moon under her feet, and 3) on her head was a crown of twelve stars" -- doesn't mean that this was/is Mary.

And what about this: "Now the dragon’s tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth." There is no record of this ever happening in reality.

How about this...

"Then the serpent spouted water like a river out of his mouth after the woman in an attempt to sweep her away by a flood, but the earth came to her rescue; the ground opened up and swallowed the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth. So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep God’s commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore." Do you actually believe that this happened in reality? If so it would be documented elsewhere in the Bible, but clearly it isn't.

Again, Revelation is John's recounting of a vision he had on the island of Patmos. It is a serious error to apply it to what actually happened on Earth.

 

[JLB]

Do you have any comments on the OP rather than digress onto something else?

My post show what the Lord Jesus Christ thinks about His mother and brothers, n relation to those who obey Him, as He relates… More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”


Scripturally the queen of heaven is a reference to a demonic entity, that the children of Israel burned incense to and worshipped.



Then all the men who knew that their wives had burned incense to other gods, with all the women who stood by, a great multitude, and all the people who dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying: “As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you! But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” Jeremiah 44:15-18


Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:16-18



I counsel you to turn away from worshiping or praying to the queen of heaven, repent and ask God to forgive you because you did this in ignorance.


We pray to God only, and we worship God only.


NOT THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN!





JLB

 

[Niblo]

I counsel you to turn away from worshiping or praying to the queen of heaven, repent and ask God to forgive you because you did this in ignorance.


We pray to God only, and we worship God only.


NOT THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN!





JLB

Catholics don't worship Mary. Mungo has made this perfectly clear in other posts.

Catholics worship the Beloved alone. In this, you and the CC are in perfect agreement.

 

[Mungo]

My post show what the Lord Jesus Christ thinks about His mother and brothers, n relation to those who obey Him, as He relates… More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Irrelevant to the OP. Please keep to the topic

Scripturally the queen of heaven is a reference to a demonic entity, that the children of Israel burned incense to and worshipped.



Then all the men who knew that their wives had burned incense to other gods, with all the women who stood by, a great multitude, and all the people who dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying: “As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you! But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” Jeremiah 44:15-18


Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:16-18



I counsel you to turn away from worshiping or praying to the queen of heaven, repent and ask God to forgive you because you did this in ignorance.


We pray to God only, and we worship God only.


NOT THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN!





JLB

It is not wrong to honour the true Queen of Heaven just because some people in the past worshipped a false queen of heaven; just as it is not wrong the worship the one true God just because some people in the past worshipped false gods.

 

[Mungo]

Revelation is John's vision. Simply because he sees this (in his vision)) -- "Then a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman 1) clothed with the sun, and with 2) the moon under her feet, and 3) on her head was a crown of twelve stars" -- doesn't mean that this was/is Mary.

And what about this: "Now the dragon’s tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth." There is no record of this ever happening in reality.

How about this...

"Then the serpent spouted water like a river out of his mouth after the woman in an attempt to sweep her away by a flood, but the earth came to her rescue; the ground opened up and swallowed the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth. So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep God’s commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore." Do you actually believe that this happened in reality? If so it would be documented elsewhere in the Bible, but clearly it isn't.

John's vision was complex.
You do not seem to have any alternative to it being Mary. All the evidence points to her - the crown, clothed in gold, her son ruling with a rod of iron. Moreover “Her child was caught up to God and his throne” so the child is clearly Jesus.

But I agree that Mary does not fit some of the other elements. What we have is fusion imagery where a person represents not just themselves but whole groups. It is common in the Bible and in apocalyptic literature.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6. Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

The seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9). This is known as polyvalent symbolism.

So Mary can also represent both Israel and the Church which accounts for some of the other elements in John's vision.

I was applying it to what was going on in heaven not earth. Again, Revelation is John's recounting of a vision he had on the island of Patmos. It is a serious error to apply it to what actually happened on Earth.

1. That is just your opinion.
2. Regarding Mary I was applying it to what John sawin heaven, not earth.

 

[JLB]

Irrelevant to the OP. Please keep to the topic

What Jesus teaches about His mother and brothers is certainly relevant to the OP.

What followers of Christ believes about Christ is found in His teachings.

What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ,

Nowhere in the teachings of Christ did Jesus ever instruct us to worship the queen of heaven.


Please do not lead God’s people astray by teaching them to worship, or pray to the queen of heaven.


Here is what the the Lord says about those who honor the queen of heaven —


Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’ Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: ‘Behold, I have sworn by My great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that My name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, “The Lord GOD lives.” Behold, I will watch over them for adversity and not for good. And all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end to them. Jeremiah 44:25-27




JLB

 

[JLB]

It is not wrong to honour the true Queen of Heaven just because some people in the past worshipped a false queen of heaven; just as it is not wrong the worship the one true God just because some people in the past worshipped false gods.

If you can show us in the scriptures where we are instructed to worship, or pray to, or honor the queen of heaven then I will have to agree with you.

If you can’t show us in scripture where we are instructed to worship, or honor or pray to the queen of heaven then you need to repent for leading the people of God into the way of destruction and death, like others who have done what you are teaching.



Behold, I will watch over them for adversity and not for good. And all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end to them.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Catholics don't worship Mary.

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Google Image Result for http://jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/medjugorje-2012.jpg

images.app.goo.gl

Google Image Result for https://spiritualminefield.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/idol-worship1.jpg

images.app.goo.gl

 

[Mungo]

What Jesus teaches about His mother and brothers is certainly relevant to the OP.

I disagree. Please address the points in the OP if you wish to continue in this thread.

What followers of Christ believes about Christ is found in His teachings.



Nowhere in the teachings of Christ did Jesus ever instruct us to worship the queen of heaven.

Catholics do not worship the queen of heaven

Please do not lead God’s people astray by teaching them to worship, or pray to the queen of heaven.

Catholics do not worship the queen of heaven.

Here is what the the Lord says about those who honor the queen of heaven —


Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’ Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: ‘Behold, I have sworn by My great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that My name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, “The Lord GOD lives.” Behold, I will watch over them for adversity and not for good. And all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end to them. Jeremiah 44:25-27




JLB

Already addressed.
It is not wrong to honour the true Queen of Heaven just because some people in the past worshipped a false queen of heaven; just as it is not wrong the worship the one true God just because some people in the past worshipped false gods.

 

[Mungo]

If you can show us in the scriptures where we are instructed to worship, or pray to, or honor the queen of heaven then I will have to agree with you.

If you can’t show us in scripture where we are instructed to worship, or honor or pray to the queen of heaven then you need to repent for leading the people of God into the way of destruction and death, like others who have done what you are teaching.

If you can show me where in scripture we are instructed to do only what is exactly specified in scripture then I might agree with you.

 

[Mungo]

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Google Image Result for http://jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/medjugorje-2012.jpg

images.app.goo.gl

Google Image Result for https://spiritualminefield.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/idol-worship1.jpg

images.app.goo.gl

Can you prove that those people are worshipping?

 

[JLB]

Catholics do not worship the queen of heaven

Sorry but that is just not true.


I posted several links that show otherwise.


Bowing down to a statue that s made in the image of someone or something in heaven or on earth is idolatry.



Please, I know you understand that a statue that is made by a human being can not answer your prayers. Don’t you want people to be right with God?


Please be reasonable.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I disagree. Please address the points in the OP if you wish to continue in this thread.

I addressed the OP with scripture.


Jesus taught us this truth which pertained to His mother.

Words of Christ in red —

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28


Jesus responded to those who called His mother blessed.

Here is Hs response again —

“More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

More blessed than Mary are those who hear the word of God and do what it says. We should all agree on this… hearing and doing what God says.

Let’s begin agreement and base our understanding in what Jesus taught.

This is what you said in the OP.

What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ

The truth is:

More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”



While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50


Jesus shows no partiality to His mother, or elevates her to some special status called “the queen of heaven”, but rather He honors those who hear and obey God as much, and even more than he does His mother Mary.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Sorry but that is just not true.

Yes it is true.

I posted several links that show otherwise.

No you didn't. And I asked "Can you prove that those people are worshipping?"
Obviously you can't

Bowing down to a statue that s made in the image of someone or something in heaven or on earth is idolatry.

Idolotry is worshipping an image. We do not worship images.
Bowing is not worship. It is honouring.
We honour the person represented by the statue not the statue itself.
There is no idolatry.
.

Please, I know you understand that a statue that is made by a human being can not answer your prayers. Don’t you want people to be right with God?

Please be reasonable.

Of course a statue cannot answer prayers. We direct our prayers to the person represented by the statue not the statue itself. Please do not be so insulting as to suggest we think a statue can answer prayers.

Please be reasonable.