I believe He has a lot to say about it.
Read:
Matt. 7:21-23
Matt. 25:30
John 15:1-6
Luke 12:41-48
Luke 13:24
Jude 5-6
Isaiah 27:11
Heb. 3:12-14
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
What Does Jesus Say About A Saved Person Becoming Unsaved ?
- Thread starter Consecrated Life
- Start date
Read:
Matt. 7:21-23
Matt. 25:30
John 15:1-6
Luke 12:41-48
Luke 13:24
Jude 5-6
Isaiah 27:11
Heb. 3:12-14
Consecrated Life
Member
Is His Spirit with you that you may "discuss" any one of these verses or are your concerns and fears of attempting that still with you ?
I know for sure he used to be Christian.
He's retold his story so many times I just FF the introduction part when he's on YouTube to debate someone.
I agree with you that this could sow doubt in many. I think it's really important to know what we believe and be firm in what we believe. To be ready with an answer and not to let us be snatched away.
I agree.
But I think we were discussing OSAS if I remember.
Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU because the person was not doing the will of the Father.
John said the he who believes in the Son will be saved, but he who DOES NOT OBEY the Son will see the wrath of God abide in him. John 3:36
CL
You missed an important word:
Luke 15:32
....be glad, for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again,
was lost and is found.
The Prodigal Son asked his father for his inheritance and walked away from the father.
He was a son and loved by the father - the father did not leave him...he left the father.
He forfeited any further inheritance the father may gain.
He abandoned the father and left to live his own life. What we might call a life of sin.
He realized what a mistake he made and went back home to his father....
who gladly welcomed him back....because he was waiting for him and hoping he'd return.
The Prod son was dead while he was away....not from the moment of birth.
This is why Jesus said AND IS ALIVE AGAIN. Again means another time, it means the son was
saved, lost, and saved again.
Yes. I understand perfectly well about the rocky soil.
This is the problem...it's Jesus telling the parable and it's Jesus explaining the parable.
I'm posting what Jesus said, as you requested.
In Luke 8:13 Jesus explains the parable....
Those on the rocky soil are those who receive the word WITH JOY.
But they don't have a firm root.
When some kind of trouble comes along (the type I've mentioned in my previous posts)
they FALL AWAY due to discouragement, doubt, anger, whatever it may be.
Now look at what Jesus says:
THEY RECEIVE THE WORD WITH JOY.
THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE.
THEY FALL AWAY.
So, the word is received and with joy.
Jesus said they believed for a while - belief is necessary for salvation - and they believed.
Then they fall away.
What did they fall away from if not from their faith?
1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Consecrated Life
Member
One of scripture's most basic Spiritual teachings regarding being "lost" and "found" is that infants and children
are assured the Kingdom of heaven until they reach the age of accountability.
There is a time when you, me, everybody as children would be present with the Lord if they die.
Certainly you don't believe babies/ aborted/ toddlers are lost when they die?
Scripture is clear they are not.
Surprising to me that this basic scriptural teaching did not occur to you in contemplating the parable
This is true for all children by the way, children of Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons , Scientologists, etc,etc,etc,,,,.
So of course the prodigal son was a saved child at some point before he reached an age to decide to reject what His loving father had taught him of God he needed to choose to have Life , and instead chose the way of sin.
Another interesting point in the parable is that there is no clear indication that the Prodigal may be with his brother in heaven based upon his anger.
Luk 15:28
And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him
Though the brother may not have rejected God in such a publicly flamboyant fashion, God is ultimately rejected in the heart of a man, the outward actions of a man notwithstanding.
Consecrated Life
Member
The same way Jesus describes the joy inspired "faith" that Peter had in Jesus that had not yet led to His salvation.
Apparently you did not read this:
Luk 22:32
"But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
Jesus says Peter has a faith, but he is not "converted"
Nicodemus risked his privileged place and position in the leadership of Israel to secretly see
Jesus at night because he had a sure faith and was joyful that Jesus had come from God.
But Jesus told Nicodemus that he was not firmly rooted yet.
Scripture makes clear that Peter was not alone in the joy of this initial rocky "faith" in believing they had found the miracle performing Messiah, whose mighty power would save the nation Israel from the gentiles as foretold, but he had not yet come to realize the true crux of the matter that Christ had come for the saving of our souls thru His sacrifice.
The concept could not have been more foreign to the disciples, and to all Israel.
Do you think Peter attacked people with his sword the night that Christ delivered Himself to die in saving us all because He had full understanding of what Christ was about to accomplish?
Of course not.
Every indication being Peter was still not converted the night they led Jesus away.
Do you know that we are actually more Blessed than Peter and the disciples in that we had the written Gospel to fathom the depths of in moving forward to our salvation in light speed , whereas the disciples were moving forward in their understanding of salvation by horse and buggy speed?
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Where do you see Jesus telling Peter he has not yet arrived at Salvation?
That is a strange interpretation of Luke 22:32, it is missing the very important verse right before it. In verse 31, Jesus says "... Simon, Simon, behold satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: ...". Verse 32, which you quoted by itself, is the second half of that sentence Jesus was speaking.
He goes on to say that He has prayed for Peter that Peter's faith will not fail when Jesus allows satan to have him and test him. He says "... and when thou art converted, (when "you have turned again" returned to the faith KJV) strengthen the brethren."
This is not Jesus stating that Peter has not yet attained Salvation at all, It is Jesus speaking of Peter's faith being allowed, by Jesus, to be tested and Peter surviving the test. Nothing at all about Salvation there.
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His unbelief is more than just Jesus. He doesn't believe in the Father either. He claimed to be born again. If He was born again as I asked "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know that He lives?" How does He state He was born again if He no longer believes in that testimony as in no such thing? I don't know him so did he really think he was born again or just claims so?
I thought it was against TOS to discuss OSAS.
John 8:31
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Can you prove he was truly a regenerated Christian?
These verses come to mind
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, in Your name did we not prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Consecrated Life
Member
"conversion" by definition does not mean maintaining ,returning, about face , "turning again" to a formerly held status or position.
Spiritual or otherwise.
"conversion" means a decided change to something entirely different & new.
Jesus is stressing a brand new Spiritual advancement beyond the place where Peter is.
Your misapplication of the word conversion notwithstanding.
Here is my early Christmas gift for you , let me help you with understanding the meaning of "conversion".
Examples of conversion in a Sentence
The company is undergoing a conversion to a new computer system.They have suggested conversion of the old school into apartments.
Conversion to gas heating will continue over the next few years.
a conversion from Catholicism to Judaism
He is thinking about conversion to Buddhism.
Merry Christmas
Hey All,
I agree wondering, this is an easy parable to understand. Jesus interprets it for us.
There was at least a form of salvation. Joy comes from the Lord. The word joy can also mean human happiness. How is "joy" being used here?
Also, is there such a thing as a momentary salvation? We know the ground had not been prepared for seed as the good ground was. The seed (God's Word) sprung up. A form of growth. But the seed could not take root in the rocky ground. So its foundation could not hold the seed. What did the ground lack?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jesus is describing what James wrote.
What type of works?
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
1. apostles' doctrine - Studying Scripture
2. fellowship - gathering together, enjoying each other's company.
3. breaking of bread - eating together (I wonder if they called it potlucks back then.)
4. prayers - thankful praise and shared prayer.
Those are the works needed for continuous growth. Those were the works the seed in the rocky ground lacked.
What does John say about people like this?
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
The rocks represent stumbling blocks. The ground had not been prepared to receive the seed. So the stumbling blocks are still there. This could be a case of head knowledge not getting to the heart of the individual. We cannot love God and love the world because nobody can serve two masters.
2 Timothy 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
They had a form of godliness.
They probably went to church.
They probably cleaned up their language.
So they also had a form of growth.
This produced a form of joy.
But whatever they were doing was not coming from the heart. So when they stumbled and fell, they lacked the ability to get back up and keep walking. Paul further says to stay away from these people.
The people represented by the rocky ground had a form of salvation. As believers we will get knocked down from time to time. The true sign of the believer is he/she gets back up. They didn't get back up.
Form of, is not being.
So I could debate whether they were ever saved.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
Consecrated Life
Member
Hi Josef,
Yes, I believe Jesus further illustrates the point that there are transitioning stages that occur unto salvation in the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Stage1- the Prodigal comes to the belief that there is something fundamentally wrong with himself:
:Luk 15:17
"And when he came to himself, he said...."
Stage 2-The Prodigal believes and has joy in realizing what is possible when he comes to the Father:
"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,"
Stage 3- The Prodigal follows thru & comes to the Father:
: Luk 15:20
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Notice that all through the first two stages although the Father never stopped loving the son & yearned for him to come to him, He was not able to RECIEVE him until the son made the decision to actually arise & then arose and came to Him .
The Father is always loving and always waiting to receive.
I can vividly recall each of these stages happening to me in my own coming to Christ , with one extra Christ given example thrown .
There was a "rocky soil" interruption in my coming to Christ where I was excited, joyful at the thought of what the future in Christ would be, and then did not immediately follow thru coming to Him, still wanting to cling to the things of this world.
I know for a fact that at this short period of time when I hesitated coming to Him, I HAD NOT YET SECURED MY SALVATION.
But thanks be to God that I did follow through.
To think of that short period now where I could have been hit by a bus and literally died in sins sends chills down my spine.
Thanks For Sharing Josef &
Merry Christmas.
Tenchi
Member
John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Romans 8:34-39
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "For your sake we are being to death all day long; we were considered sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 13:5
5 ...for He Himself has said, "I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,"
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Hey All,
The prodigal son is not a salvation story. It is the account of a believer caught up in the cares of the world.
I will disagree on when the son receives joy Consecrated Life.
In verse 17 the son accesses his situation.
17. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
" . . . my father's . . . "
The son knew to whom he belonged.
He was the man's son when he asked for his inheritance.
He was the man's son when he left.
He was the man's son when he was living riotously.
He was the man's son when he began to want.
He was the man's son when he was contemplating eating pig slop.
At no point was the son ever actually separated from being the father's son; until he incorrectly perceived his father's attitude towards him.
18. I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
"I will arise and go to my father, . . . "
The son realized what he did was a mistake.
He develops a plan to confess his sin and make amends to his father.
Here is the issue I have with your post. You left out verse 19.
19. And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
The son assumes he is disowned by the father. But he was not. The son prepares this speech, but never gets to use it. Before the son was able to give his speech, his father ran to greet him hugged him, kissed him, and had a feast prepared in his honor. This was the exact opposite of what the son was expecting.
So, again, this is not a salvation account. The son represents a fallen believer, who finally acknowledges his sin, picks himself up, prepares to make amends, puts his armor back on, and begins the walk back home. (This is the lesson here. One cannot go so far away that they cannot return.)
20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
The father had compassion for the son.
Compassion from the father restored the son's joy.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
The prodigal son is not a salvation story. It is the account of a believer caught up in the cares of the world.
I will disagree on when the son receives joy Consecrated Life.
In verse 17 the son accesses his situation.
17. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
" . . . my father's . . . "
The son knew to whom he belonged.
He was the man's son when he asked for his inheritance.
He was the man's son when he left.
He was the man's son when he was living riotously.
He was the man's son when he began to want.
He was the man's son when he was contemplating eating pig slop.
At no point was the son ever actually separated from being the father's son; until he incorrectly perceived his father's attitude towards him.
18. I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
"I will arise and go to my father, . . . "
The son realized what he did was a mistake.
He develops a plan to confess his sin and make amends to his father.
Here is the issue I have with your post. You left out verse 19.
19. And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
The son assumes he is disowned by the father. But he was not. The son prepares this speech, but never gets to use it. Before the son was able to give his speech, his father ran to greet him hugged him, kissed him, and had a feast prepared in his honor. This was the exact opposite of what the son was expecting.
So, again, this is not a salvation account. The son represents a fallen believer, who finally acknowledges his sin, picks himself up, prepares to make amends, puts his armor back on, and begins the walk back home. (This is the lesson here. One cannot go so far away that they cannot return.)
20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
The father had compassion for the son.
Compassion from the father restored the son's joy.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
When Jesus spoke to "His disciples" about the living bread that came down from heaven they stated it was too hard a teaching to accept and many walked away from Him at that time. He stated, "This is why I stated no one comes to Him unless the Father enables them" Elsewhere He stated, "all that the Father gives Him will come to Him" and its His Fathers will that He lose none that the Father has given Him but raise them up on the last day. Jesus always keeps the Fathers will.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Much is said about this sober subject, however, we should stick to biblical terminology such as becoming “lost” rather than unsaved.
If a word or term is unbiblical, not found in the Bible, then if course by default you won’t be “aware” of it since its not in scripture.
Unsaved is not a word found in scripture.
Lost is a biblical word.
In Christ = Saved
Seperated from Christ = Lost
Note: Someone must first possess something before they can lose that something.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Being in Christ, then being removed from Christ is just one of the ways we may no longer have Him, and thus no longer have eternal life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12
Disobedience (sin) is how we become separated from Christ.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
Here we is how this same John instructed us, by the Spirit, to remain in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB
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Consecrated Life
Member
Many will say " Lord, Lord" who have never known Him and been saved, thus never abided in Him right ?
The Lord said that those who belong to Him are known by their fruit for a reason.
Many fruitless will claim to be His
They who say "Lord, Lord" & not abide in Christ is the example then given,
In Calvinistic theology, the question of whether a saved person can become unsaved is often explored in the context of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. This doctrine asserts that those whom God has elected and regenerated will continue in faith and will not ultimately fall away from grace.
Calvin's Emphasis on Perseverance: John Calvin, a key figure in the development of Calvinism, strongly emphasized the idea that those who are truly saved will be preserved by God's grace and will not lose their salvation.
Calvin's Perspective: "Christ promises eternal life to all His sheep, and He knows His sheep to be His from the beginning." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Harmony of the Gospels)
Biblical Support for Perseverance: Calvinists often turn to biblical passages that highlight the security of believers and their perseverance in faith. One such passage is John 10:27-29.
Calvin's Perspective: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
Concerns about Apostasy: In addressing the idea of a saved person becoming unsaved, Calvinists may express concerns about the concept of apostasy but argue that true believers will not experience a complete and final falling away.
Calvin's Perspective: "For Christ will not be life to any who are not members of His body; and it is equally true that He is life to none but the elect." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Harmony of the Gospels)
While this perspective is specific to Calvinistic theology, it's essential to note that other theological traditions, such as Arminianism, may hold different views on the perseverance of the saints and the possibility of apostasy. Theological perspectives on salvation and the security of believers can vary widely within the Christian faith.
Consecrated Life
Member
Agreed that those who are saved do not become unsaved.
As to becoming saved by Calvinistic theology from what I know of it anyway, runs contradictory to many of the examples in scripture I see of God utilizing so many various individual commands, inspirations, challenges, flat out defeats, etc,etc,etc, to save some in example, in order to use said examples to yet even further His drawing of others unto Himself that at some point, for me I have to say that such a theology does not compute.
Merry Christmas