Should women teach in the church?

[Cooper]

I've already addressed this in my previous post to you. As a part of the context of this topic, we must ask what Paul then means for women to "keep silent" if he does allow certain forms of women talking. He is, it appears, speaking of women who ask their husbands questions during church, at a minimum. Perhaps the women were trying to debate and discuss and raise objections in church. My initial point in raising this passage was that a woman was to be in submission to her husband, even in church. So, while Paul allows some talking for women in church, he does not allow all manner of talking, including teaching men, it would seem.

Men and women were seated separately.
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[Cooper]

You mentioned man was created first and that makes him naturally the leader, the more important one. Animals were created before Adam. So, the point doesn't work out. If we're going by order of creation, people would not be important at all, which would be contradictory to what is told to us in Genesis.

You say "a woman can't be a leader," but you haven't even said why. You say, "That's all I'm saying," but where is the Biblical evidence to back it up? What's your actual opinion on it?

To say that women can't preach but men can is inequality. How can men and women be considered equal, but women not be allowed to preach? And often not even allowed to lead hymns, say prayers, or say anything aloud in a church service?

Just because man was created to be the "head" doesn't mean that women are lesser. Women are to work with their husbands, and sometimes this can mean trusting a husband's decision on something when he doesn't have the time to consult his wife. The husband is to have a responsibility in the household, to ensure things are going well, but a woman does, too - what about Proverbs 31? It's a partnership, not a dominant and submissive type deal.

Just to say:
H120 'a^da^m aw-dawm' From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person. Total KJV occurrences: 541

Gen 1:27 So God created man (human beings) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
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[Cooper]

You mentioned man was created first and that makes him naturally the leader, the more important one. Animals were created before Adam. So, the point doesn't work out. If we're going by order of creation, people would not be important at all, which would be contradictory to what is told to us in Genesis.

You say "a woman can't be a leader," but you haven't even said why. You say, "That's all I'm saying," but where is the Biblical evidence to back it up? What's your actual opinion on it?

To say that women can't preach but men can is inequality. How can men and women be considered equal, but women not be allowed to preach? And often not even allowed to lead hymns, say prayers, or say anything aloud in a church service?

Just because man was created to be the "head" doesn't mean that women are lesser. Women are to work with their husbands, and sometimes this can mean trusting a husband's decision on something when he doesn't have the time to consult his wife. The husband is to have a responsibility in the household, to ensure things are going well, but a woman does, too - what about Proverbs 31? It's a partnership, not a dominant and submissive type deal.

In the Catholic, Church Mary who came before Jesus (obviously) takes the lead over her son in their worship. Clearly this is wrong, they should be worshipping the creator and Saviour of the world. King David was the youngest of ten but he was the most important.

Both men and women are equal in the sight of God. Both are made in His image (Genesis 1:27), both are separated from Him by sin and need a Savior (Romans 3:23), and both may be redeemed through Christ and receive the Holy Spirit making them heirs of God (Galatians 3:27–29).
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[Cooper]

A Pastor is a leader in the church, woman cannot be Pastors. 1 Timothy 3:1 and following.

1 Timothy 3:1 following does not say women cannot be pastors.
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence."
(1Ti 3:1-4 NKJV)
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[Cooper]

There are some women that truly feel it is their calling and have a passion to serve God's church/God's people.

I can vouch for that. A husband and wife team, both ordained pastors did great work, but Mrs Pastor Gorton in her church and missionary work outshone her husband, wonderful though he was.
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[Cooper]

We need to be careful not to let Paul's administration of the early church take precedence over the teaching of the master himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.
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[jerry63935]

There are some women that truly feel it is their calling and have a passion to serve God's church/God's people.

i understand that.. i was just going by what scripture says. its not my job to judge

 

[electedbyhim]

There are some women that truly feel it is their calling and have a passion to serve God's church/God's people.

Yes, but id is just a "feeling". Christians do not live on feelings.

Sadly, many do.

 

[electedbyhim]

1 Timothy 3:1-12 covers the qualifications for overseers and deacons. I'm not seeing where this says women can't be pastors.

A woman cannot be a husband of one wife 1 Timothy 3:2

Overseer is a Pastor.

bishop. The word means "overseer" and identifies the men who are responsible to lead the church (cf. 1Ti_5:17; 1Th_5:12; Heb_13:7). In the NT the words bishop, elder, overseer, and pastor are used interchangeably to describe the same men (Act_20:17, Act_20:28; Tit_1:5-9; 1Pe_5:1-2). Bishops (pastors, overseers, elders) are responsible to lead (1Ti_5:17), preach and teach (1Ti_5:17), help the spiritually weak (1Th_5:12-14), care for the church (1Pe_5:1-2), and ordain other leaders (1Ti_4:14).

 

[Cooper]

A woman cannot be a husband of one wife 1 Timothy 3:2

Overseer is a Pastor.

bishop. The word means "overseer" and identifies the men who are responsible to lead the church (cf. 1Ti_5:17; 1Th_5:12; Heb_13:7). In the NT the words bishop, elder, overseer, and pastor are used interchangeably to describe the same men (Act_20:17, Act_20:28; Tit_1:5-9; 1Pe_5:1-2). Bishops (pastors, overseers, elders) are responsible to lead (1Ti_5:17), preach and teach (1Ti_5:17), help the spiritually weak (1Th_5:12-14), care for the church (1Pe_5:1-2), and ordain other leaders (1Ti_4:14).

Meaning, as you well know, a bishop or anyone who is a church official, cannot be a bigamist, and the same applies to women as well. All are equal in the sight of God. God is no differentiator of persons.
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[electedbyhim]

Meaning, as you well know, a bishop or anyone who is a church official, cannot be a bigamist, and the same applies to women as well. All are equal in the sight of God. God is no differentiator of persons.
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I am not certain how a bigamist pertains to anything I posted.

All are not equal when it come to the Pastorate.

Do you believe God designed man as head of household?

 

[Edward]

Meaning, as you well know, a bishop or anyone who is a church official, cannot be a bigamist, and the same applies to women as well. All are equal in the sight of God. God is no differentiator of persons.
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That's right. So maybe women can't be the Pastor but women can teach good. Most of my teachers through school were women. So no big deal in my mind.

Women can't blame the men for not being able to be the Pastor. That's God's rules. I will make a help meet for Adam cuz he shouldn't be alone. Women can be teachers, cooks, child bearing, house cleaning. There's many things that women do to be helpful to the men! And if she wanted to get a job outside the house, more power to her, let her. Let her keep the money she earns too, for herself.

Just because a woman wants to work shouldn't magically obligate her to paying bills, that's the man's job so he pays the bills or goes hunting or whatever. That's on the man to provide and her getting a job doesn't mean, Whee I got more money! She does.

But she can't be a pastor, God said. Man pays, women are not Pastors. It's just the way that God designed the system.

I think a few in this thread are almost delving moreso towards rational/logical/exegis so much that it's being carnal about it and should we really delve into Law?

No! It is the spirit of the law that should be the focus.

 

[jaybo]

That sounded OK to me.
KJV..."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (1 Tim 2:12)
Your version added its own opinion to the scripture, but it didn't change the intent of the scripture.
Women are not to teach men.
That in only one of the reasons they are precluded from leading a church.

One verse doth not doctrine make. Can you give a valid reason for women being excluded for teaching in church?

 

[jaybo]

In the Catholic, Church Mary who came before Jesus (obviously) takes the lead over her son in their worship. Clearly this is wrong, they should be worshipping the creator and Saviour of the world. King David was the youngest of ten but he was the most important.

Both men and women are equal in the sight of God. Both are made in His image (Genesis 1:27), both are separated from Him by sin and need a Savior (Romans 3:23), and both may be redeemed through Christ and receive the Holy Spirit making them heirs of God (Galatians 3:27–29).
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Great post!

 

[jaybo]

We need to be careful not to let Paul's administration of the early church take precedence over the teaching of the master himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Another great post!

 

[Free]

We need to be careful not to let Paul's administration of the early church take precedence over the teaching of the master himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.
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And what specific teachings of Jesus speak to women being in positions of authority over men or teaching men in the assembled church?

As I have pointed out, and has been ignored thus far, Jesus didn't have a woman among the twelve.

 

[Cooper]

And what specific teachings of Jesus speak to women being in positions of authority over men or teaching men in the assembled church?

As I have pointed out, and has been ignored thus far, Jesus didn't have a woman among the twelve.

Jesus stands alone as the one who did not discriminate against women. Take the women caught in adultery, no discrimination there. Not so with the Jews who would have stoned her to death. By word or deed, Jesus had an equal relationship with all people regardless of gender. He interacted with the woman at the well, with a Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:24-30 and in Matthew 15:21-28, "an unnamed Gentile woman taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to all who have faith."

The gospels often tell of Jesus speaking to women publicly and openly against the social norms of the time. From the beginning, Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means.[Lk. 8:1-3] Several New Testament passages tell of female disciples. (Wiki)

Jesus asked the crowd, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching his hand towards his followers, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:46-50.

The Scriptures call both Miriam and Deborah a "prophetess" (Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4). The Lord spoke to Miriam, Aaron and Moses as a threesome in the tabernacle (Numbers 12:4, Micah 6:4), and Deborah was a judge in Israel which is one of the functions of an apostle. So the precedent for women in leadership roles is firmly established in the Scriptures even within a culture where women were considered "second class." Also, Lydia in Acts 16 was a woman leader of her home church, and Aquilla and Priscilla were a husband-wife team that functioned as co-leaders at their local church (1 Cor. 16:19).

There is no discrimination in any way, shape or form in the Bible, but I am seeing it here. All those who follow Jesus are his brothers and sisters. He loves all those who follow Him. Can people on here call themselves disciples of Jesus? I am disturbed by what I read. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
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[Hopeful]

One verse doth not doctrine make. Can you give a valid reason for women being excluded for teaching in church?

Yes, they sinned first.
Just as difficult (baby) labor was put on them, so too they will pay with a subjection to their husbands.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus stands alone as the one who did not discriminate against women. Take the women caught in adultery, no discrimination there. Not so with the Jews who would have stoned her to death. By word or deed, Jesus had an equal relationship with all people regardless of gender. He interacted with the woman at the well, with a Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:24-30 and in Matthew 15:21-28, "an unnamed Gentile woman taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to all who have faith."

The gospels often tell of Jesus speaking to women publicly and openly against the social norms of the time. From the beginning, Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means.[Lk. 8:1-3] Several New Testament passages tell of female disciples. (Wiki)

Jesus asked the crowd, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching his hand towards his followers, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:46-50.

The Scriptures call both Miriam and Deborah a "prophetess" (Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4). The Lord spoke to Miriam, Aaron and Moses as a threesome in the tabernacle (Numbers 12:4, Micah 6:4), and Deborah was a judge in Israel which is one of the functions of an apostle. So the precedent for women in leadership roles is firmly established in the Scriptures even within a culture where women were considered "second class." Also, Lydia in Acts 16 was a woman leader of her home church, and Aquilla and Priscilla were a husband-wife team that functioned as co-leaders at their local church (1 Cor. 16:19).

There is no discrimination in any way, shape or form. All those who follow Jesus are his brothers and sisters. He loves all those who follow Him. Can people on here call themselves disciples of Jesus? I have my opinion, and I sincerely hope I am wrong.
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I think it a pity that you are trying to reform the church according to present day culture.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[jaybo]

And what specific teachings of Jesus speak to women being in positions of authority over men or teaching men in the assembled church?

As I have pointed out, and has been ignored thus far, Jesus didn't have a woman among the twelve.

Acts 2:18, "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

Acts 5:14, "Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number."

Acts 8:12, "But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Acts 17:4, "Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Romans 16:12, "Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord."

Philippians 4:3, "Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life."

Quite obviously, a lot changed after the Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on both men and women. And this was in a society when women were subservient to me, being considered little more than slaves.