How to Liven this place up

[GodsGrace]

It's only a different messenger, not a different Supreme God. Jesus says "the thief comes to steal, to kill and to destroy but I have come that they may have life to the fullest". The Qur'an makes it clear that its only reason for having come, is because the Christians had lost the authenticity of the message of Christ, and thus there was an opportunity for a more perfect faith to overtake them (see my earlier references to the righteousness of the Pharisees).

They certainly can't draw any power from God where they are less righteous in His eyes. But the same holds true of anyone who calls upon His name.

There is only one God.

But if He's being misrepresented, aren't we creating a "different" God?

Isn't this the reason why so many Christians insist that the God of Islam is a different God?

Could you direct me to your post re the pharisees?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ahahaha true...

You are real true blue.
Im a wog (but not a mario), my olds came here from Europe

When i hit the link to your old school I thought I was about to see a class photo...

So i got this idea now... Lets all dig up an old class photo and post them on here for a laugh... Let's look at who we were as kids...

You'd have to start a new thread.
We had done this years ago...
It was fun. Many new persons now...so....

 

[Serving Zion]

There is only one God.

But if He's being misrepresented, aren't we creating a "different" God?

Isn't this the reason why so many Christians insist that the God of Islam is a different God?

Could you direct me to your post re the pharisees?

Yes, that is it exactly. That is why Jesus says "noone comes to the father except by me" and "anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs up some other way, is surely a robber and a thief".

I mentioned earlier how Jesus had said "unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisee's, you shall by no means enter heaven". That is the nature of the kingdom of God, and why it is important to always do justice: because God is no respector of persons. He will not defend anyone based upon the name of their religion, only if they have a valid cause to His ruling in their favour. That means that if a Christian is doing wickedness, He is obligated to acknowledge that as wickedness. The name of Jesus is not an excuse for doing greater sin than the unbelievers.

(Edit: it was said in post #56).

 

[OzSpen]

Ahahaha true...

You are real true blue.
Im a wog (but not a mario), my olds came here from Europe

When i hit the link to your old school I thought I was about to see a class photo...

So i got this idea now... Lets all dig up an old class photo and post them on here for a laugh... Let's look at who we were as kids...

I don't have one available to upload. I have one of me about age 1 on my TV stand but don't have a digital copy. In that era there were no coloured photos - only black & white that were then painted. Those were the days and they tell you something about my model of age.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is it exactly. That is why Jesus says "noone comes to the father except by me" and "anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs up some other way, is surely a robber and a thief".

I mentioned earlier how Jesus had said "unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisee's, you shall by no means enter heaven". That is the nature of the kingdom of God, and why it is important to always do justice: because God is no respector of persons. He will not defend anyone based upon the name of their religion, only if they have a valid cause to His ruling in their favour. That means that if a Christian is doing wickedness, He is obligated to acknowledge that as wickedness. The name of Jesus is not an excuse for doing greater sin than the unbelievers.

(Edit: it was said in post #56).

I believe we agree about God's justice.
I'm not one to believe that ONLY Christians are going to heaven.
If someone does not know Jesus but they love and serve God,,,He will surely be merciful and just,,,as Romans 1:19-20 teaches us that God has always revealed Himself and man has always had a choice to accept or deny.

As to the Pharisees and how our righteousness has to exceed theirs....I understand this to mean that ONLY following laws will not gain us salvation...but it is the following of law AND the fact that we believe and do so with our heart and our love.

The pharisees followed the law but they were far from God and also did not allow others to be close to God.
Matthew 23:13

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm not one to believe that ONLY Christians are going to heaven.

I am one who brings the question of "what is a Christian?". "Many will come to me saying 'look at all the good deeds I did in your name' and to them I will say plainly 'I never knew you, and you are a worker of iniquity'" (Matthew 7:21-23). There is John 10:16, that shows that the ones belonging to Jesus Christ are also found outside of the constraints of the religion that was attributed to Him.

The parable of the final judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 also tells us that the judgment is not based on what we have believed, but how we have treated those who were coming in His spirit: "what you did to even the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you were doing to me".

He even says that He will draft them from all the nations (which means to say that within all nationalities - whether it be an identity of kin as Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Jewish or Protestant - they are all nations in His eyes. Some translations don't even call them nations, but "peoples").

Therefore it is not the religion that saves, but the fruits of it, and when one is mature, he realises that The Holy Spirit is working with His people through the confines of the religious and social structures that they have been born and formed within (Ecclesiastes 12:11). Still, the knowledge of Jesus Christ is a dividing matter that defines those who are of His kin (Matthew 10:34, 1 Peter 2:6, John 13:35), and everybody has to take a side on the matter when it comes to them, regardless of their religious background. That's where the Qur'an proves that it really is the enemy of Christianity, because it forces its believers to oppose the scriptures that have been given by The Holy Spirit of God and even introduces wild facts that are at odds with the true history of things.

The pharisees followed the law but they were far from God and also did not allow others to be close to God.

That is true (eg: Mark 7:13), and it is really the same problem that we are discussing, where Judaism was the religious mechanism for the captivity rather than Islam (Ephesians 4:8). We see examples in history and the world around us, that the same thief operates within the confines of the Christian religion, as is warned by Hosea 4:6 and foretold by 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and witnessed by 2 Peter 2:1-2 etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am one who brings the question of "what is a Christian?". "Many will come to me saying 'look at all the good deeds I did in your name' and to them I will say plainly 'I never knew you, and you are a worker of iniquity'" (Matthew 7:21-23). There is John 10:16, that shows that the ones belonging to Jesus Christ are also found outside of the constraints of the religion that was attributed to Him.

The parable of the final judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 also tells us that the judgment is not based on what we have believed, but how we have treated those who were coming in His spirit: "what you did to even the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you were doing to me".

He even says that He will draft them from all the nations (which means to say that within all nationalities - whether it be an identity of kin as Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Jewish or Protestant - they are all nations in His eyes. Some translations don't even call them nations, but "peoples").

Therefore it is not the religion that saves, but the fruits of it, and when one is mature, he realises that The Holy Spirit is working with His people through the confines of the religious and social structures that they have been born and formed within (Ecclesiastes 12:11). Still, the knowledge of Jesus Christ is a dividing matter that defines those who are of His kin (Matthew 10:34, 1 Peter 2:6, John 13:35), and everybody has to take a side on the matter when it comes to them, regardless of their religious background. That's where the Qur'an proves that it really is the enemy of Christianity, because it forces its believers to oppose the scriptures that have been given by The Holy Spirit of God and even introduces wild facts that are at odds with the true history of things.



That is true (eg: Mark 7:13), and it is really the same problem that we are discussing, where Judaism was the religious mechanism for the captivity rather than Islam (Ephesians 4:8). We see examples in history and the world around us, that the same thief operates within the confines of the Christian religion, as is warned by Hosea 4:6 and foretold by 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and witnessed by 2 Peter 2:1-2 etc.

Great post!

Many times I'll be told that Matthew 7:23 is speaking of those that are not born again. Nowhere from 7:13 onward does Jesus speak of being born again...He is speaking of good trees, good fruit...and in verse 23 He plainly states WHY some will be turned away: The NASB says "you who practice lawlessness".

So, yes, I agree totally with all you've posted above.

I just want to clarify that I DO believe that we do have to be born again...in the sense that we do have to come to know and serve God...those that do many good deeds but do not believe in God are not in a good place.

Jesus did not speak too much about "being saved",,,just a few times. He spoke about God's Kingdom on earth; how to be a part of it and how to remain a part of it.

Some cling to the concept of being born again as if for dear life.
Perhaps thinking of an Almighty and Just God is too much to bear...But, alas, this is what God is (or Who He is) and somehow we have to come to grips with this.

So, basically, we need to be born of the spirit,,,John 3:3,5
and we need to obey the best we can...John 14:15

 

[for_his_glory]

If you and humble soul are relating something you believe about God or Christianity,,,it has to be shown that it comes not from your own understanding but from some concept in the bible. You can use a verse from the bible and explain it how you understand it...but you cannot make up your own theology. This is known as eisegesis and is not acceptable when discussing matters that are biblical in nature. We don't quote verses to show off how smart we are but to show how what we think is supported by scripture. I find that I've learned much by doing this. If someone brings up a point they never thought of before, it moves them to learn more.

Exactly, giving scripture in discussions helps us to Spiritually discern truth from error as we read them to make sure of what one claims to be true actually lines up with scripture as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us.

Rule of thumb is to never take anyone's word for anything unless they can back themselves up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly, giving scripture in discussions helps us to Spiritually discern truth from error as we read them to make sure of what one claims to be true actually lines up with scripture as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us.

Rule of thumb is to never take anyone's word for anything unless they can back themselves up.

Agreed.
Even if there is a disagreement regarding the exegesis of the verse or verses....they should still be posted and the understanding of the member should be stated.

Otherwise, yes, it becomes just the opinion of someone.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's only a different messenger, not a different Supreme God. Jesus says "the thief comes to steal, to kill and to destroy but I have come that they may have life to the fullest". The Qur'an makes it clear that its only reason for having come, is because the Christians had lost the authenticity of the message of Christ, and thus there was an opportunity for a more perfect faith to overtake them (see my earlier references to the righteousness of the Pharisees).

They certainly can't draw any power from God where they are less righteous in His eyes. But the same holds true of anyone who calls upon His name.

Here is some knowledge about Allah. Muslims believe that the Quran was orally revealed by God to the final prophet Mohammed through the archangel Gabriel (Jibril) over a period of some 23 years beginning on Dec 22, 609 CE when Mohammed was forty years old and concluding in 632 the year of his death.

This is the made up god (not worthy of a capital "G") of Mohammed that the Muslims worship. These are only a few excerpts from the Quran as I have many of them.

Muhammad...
Said Allah hates those who don't accept Islam.
(Qur'an 30:4, 3:32, 22:38)

"I have been commanded to fight
against people till they testify that there
is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad
is the messenger of Allah"
(Muslim 1:33)

Permitted stealing from unbelievers.
(Bukhari 44:668, Ibn Ishaq 764)

Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold.
(Muslim 4645)

"O you who believe! Fight those of the
unbelievers who are near to you
and let them find in you hardness."
(Qur'an 9:123)

"And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah"
(Qur'an 8:39)

What are the Greatest Commandments?
"Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause"
(Muslim 1:149)

 

[for_his_glory]

I am one who brings the question of "what is a Christian?". "Many will come to me saying 'look at all the good deeds I did in your name' and to them I will say plainly 'I never knew you, and you are a worker of iniquity'" (Matthew 7:21-23). There is John 10:16, that shows that the ones belonging to Jesus Christ are also found outside of the constraints of the religion that was attributed to Him.

The parable of the final judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 also tells us that the judgment is not based on what we have believed, but how we have treated those who were coming in His spirit: "what you did to even the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you were doing to me".

He even says that He will draft them from all the nations (which means to say that within all nationalities - whether it be an identity of kin as Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Jewish or Protestant - they are all nations in His eyes. Some translations don't even call them nations, but "peoples").

Therefore it is not the religion that saves, but the fruits of it, and when one is mature, he realises that The Holy Spirit is working with His people through the confines of the religious and social structures that they have been born and formed within (Ecclesiastes 12:11). Still, the knowledge of Jesus Christ is a dividing matter that defines those who are of His kin (Matthew 10:34, 1 Peter 2:6, John 13:35), and everybody has to take a side on the matter when it comes to them, regardless of their religious background. That's where the Qur'an proves that it really is the enemy of Christianity, because it forces its believers to oppose the scriptures that have been given by The Holy Spirit of God and even introduces wild facts that are at odds with the true history of things.



That is true (eg: Mark 7:13), and it is really the same problem that we are discussing, where Judaism was the religious mechanism for the captivity rather than Islam (Ephesians 4:8). We see examples in history and the world around us, that the same thief operates within the confines of the Christian religion, as is warned by Hosea 4:6 and foretold by 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and witnessed by 2 Peter 2:1-2 etc.

I think Colossians 3:1-4 explains exactly what a Christian is as Christian means to be Christlike in all our ways. We can only do this by being led of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Serving Zion]

Jesus did not speak too much about "being saved",,,just a few times. He spoke about God's Kingdom on earth; how to be a part of it and how to remain a part of it.

Yes, it is important to distinguish those two aspects of salvation.

For one part, the knowledge of the final judgment is talking about everlasting life in a hereafter; while the knowledge of the kingdom of God is about having eyes opened to the spiritual reality, to know what is happening in the spirit of a person when they speak.

In that way, we can see that Jesus speaks of a final judgment that is not qualified by having recognising Him in the spirit (for they say to Him "Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food, or thirsty and give you drink?") and yet, He says to them "come, you who are blessed by my father, to inherit the kingdom" and so they go on to everlasting life. Whereas He was saying to Nicodemus "you cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. What is born of flesh is flesh, but what is born of spirit is spirit" - which comes in response to him having said "we know that God is with you because of the signs and wonders you perform". God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit.

Jesus says a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign, and yet, there is a majority of Christians today who are basing their faith on signs and wonders but do not recognise Him when He speaks. (That's why they argue and fight with each other - because they do not look to see what He is saying in the midst of them).

There are people of other religions who have the same spiritual awareness, and surely if Jesus had enough opportunity to speak to them through Christians who were not doing intellectual dishonesty, then He would lead them to the knowledge of who He is in the bible. But the majority of Christians, being unaware of the spiritual, are blind to the spiritual, and so the disciples had such a difficult time bringing the resurrection to bear upon the reality in their time. He had said to them "walk while you have the light, lest the darkness overtake you, for those who walk in the darkness do not know where they are going".