IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[GodsGrace]

God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
He told Adam not to eat of one particular tree.

Genesis 2:16-17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


Does this mean Adam had free will to eat of it or not to eat of it?


After Adam ate of the forbidden fruit...he lost preternatural gifts:
Immortality
Infused Knowledge
Integrity

Did he also lose free will?

When the bible speaks of free will, it intends free will on moral issues.

Are we free to make a moral decision or did we lose this freedom at the fall?

 

[jasonc]

me thinks you,are reformed and loathing it

 

[Hopeful]

God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
He told Adam not to eat of one particular tree.

Genesis 2:16-17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


Does this mean Adam had free will to eat of it or not to eat of it?


After Adam ate of the forbidden fruit...he lost preternatural gifts:
Immortality
Infused Knowledge
Integrity

Did he also lose free will?

When the bible speaks of free will, it intends free will on moral issues.

Are we free to make a moral decision or did we lose this freedom at the fall?

We did not lose free will.
If we had, there would be no way to judge the inhabitants of earth on the final day.

 

[GodsGrace]

me thinks you,are reformed and loathing it

Jason...
That's so funny I can't even answer to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

We did not lose free will.
If we had, there would be no way to judge the inhabitants of earth on the final day.

And herein lies the crux of the problem!

Those that believe we have lost our true free will also believe we are still
responsible for our sins.

How could this be?
If God predestines us to sin....how does He then hold us responsible for sinning
IF He is a just God?

I agree with you.

The only way God can be a just God is if He judges us on what we have freely done.

 

[daninthelionsden]

And herein lies the crux of the problem!

Those that believe we have lost our true free will also believe we are still
responsible for our sins.

How could this be?
If God predestines us to sin....how does He then hold us responsible for sinning
IF He is a just God?

I agree with you.

The only way God can be a just God is if He judges us on what we have freely done.

Will God judge us on what others compel us to do that which we wouldn't do if left to our own? Or rather, will He judge as harshly as He might otherwise?

 

[Walpole]

If man is not free, he is also not culpable for his actions, whether they be good or evil acts. Thus man cannot be rewarded for good acts, nor condemned for evil acts. You cannot have a moral universe without being free. Paradoxically to believe otherwise makes the Incarnation itself an act contra-Logos.

God did not make androids; He made man.

 

[for_his_glory]

What Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 is a conflict between what the flesh wants and in our mind knowing what is good and evil. But by our own choice, being free to decide those things we do or do not is a free will choice. Everything in our life is made up of choices only we our self can choose to walk in.

 

[jasonc]

I,could brow beat my believes on Catholics .the things I see ,currently the parish in city limits main land owns a street or two and bought old homes and does not rent them .

I could go into,the flocking to visions of Mary and Dolores in mexico to receive miracles ,yet right in your own parish elders can or at with you for that b
ut its not idoltatry .they say ,nor are those shrines in the garden of her .

but let's beat up Calvin who wanted no grave stone ,nor anyone to know where he is buried .

me thinks you,are reformed and loathing it

that's why I posted that and I can go into the whacky pentacostal ideas too and others .yet I seldom do.

three threads on the reformed .

 

[GodsGrace]

Will God judge us on what others compel us to do that which we wouldn't do if left to our own? Or rather, will He judge as harshly as He might otherwise?

Can someone compel us to do what we otherwise would not?
Maybe under threat of death?
First, I can't think of anything that someone might compel me to do....
this doesn't mean that it can't happen - I just can't think of it right now.

Also, when discussing free will, I'm referring to God giving us free will
or not giving us free will. As you know, calvinists believe in a different type
of free will than other Christians do - which is not really free will.

This will be what this thread is about. (or whatever comes up, such as your post).

 

[GodsGrace]

If man is not free, he is also not culpable for his actions, whether they be good or evil acts. Thus man cannot be rewarded for good acts, nor condemned for evil acts. You cannot have a moral universe without being free. Paradoxically to believe otherwise makes the Incarnation itself an act contra-Logos.

God did not make androids; He made man.

Thanks Walpole.

I'm so happy that Christianity makes sense!
God made us in His image and that included free will.
As far as I can tell, it was not taken away after the fall.

Indeed, if we are not truly free, we cannot have a moral universe...
morality does not exist.

This is why predestination is not taught in the N.T.
Free will and predestination (determinism) do not go hand in hand and
instead are in conflict.

But, as you may know, our St. Augustine (400 A.D.) came up with this
idea and John Calvin wrote much of what he wrote based on Augustine's
doctrine.

I can't, offhand, think of another prominent Christian that agreed with him,
both then and now.

 

[jasonc]

Can someone compel us to do what we otherwise would not?
Maybe under threat of death?
First, I can't think of anything that someone might compel me to do....
this doesn't mean that it can't happen - I just can't think of it right now.

Also, when discussing free will, I'm referring to God giving us free will
or not giving us free will. As you know, calvinists believe in a different type
of free will than other Christians do - which is not really free will.

This will be what this thread is about. (or whatever comes up, such as your post).

so God shouldnt punish the wicked ?

that's a containment of mans will .he choose evil ,God overrides it and slays him for that act .no different then,lawful moral coercion of woman who don't want a child to carry it to term and put the child to be adopted

 

[jasonc]

the older I,get ,the evil I,see in the media and local things I see and hear and do I see i am evil and others are as well .there is no good in me .

perhaps it my time in anarchist Afghanistan that ruined me .

7 years old selling drugs ,offering protisututes ,taking up,arms to kill us
the cops killed for robbing lawful land owners of their land and the fire fight to right that and we stayed out per ordered ,girls beat for looking at us ,children treated as cattle ,boys valued over girls.

women as second class ,beaten etc .mutilated babies by burns from scolding water poured in them as punishment

 

[GodsGrace]

What Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-25 is a conflict between what the flesh wants and in our mind knowing what is good and evil. But by our own choice, being free to decide those things we do or do not is a free will choice. Everything in our life is made up of choices only we our self can choose to walk in.

Romans 7:7-25
7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.



The Conflict of Two Natures

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


I agree that our behavior has to be by our own choice....
IF it were NOT....WHY would Paul carry on this way?
Should he not have known that he had no control over his actions due to predestination??

 

[GodsGrace]

I,could brow beat my believes on Catholics .the things I see ,currently the parish in city limits main land owns a street or two and bought old homes and does not rent them .

I could go into,the flocking to visions of Mary and Dolores in mexico to receive miracles ,yet right in your own parish elders can or at with you for that b
ut its not idoltatry .they say ,nor are those shrines in the garden of her .

but let's beat up Calvin who wanted no grave stone ,nor anyone to know where he is buried .


that's why I posted that and I can go into the whacky pentacostal ideas too and others .yet I seldom do.

three threads on the reformed .

Three threads on the reformed is nowhere enough.

But some comments re your post:

1. What does Catholicism have to do with free will or calvinism?
They may have some doctrine that Protestants do not agree with,
but at least they make some SENSE!

Calvinism makes no logical sense and I have to hear that it's
because some things of God are a mystery. I don't believe God inspired
the N.T. to be written so we could NOT know Him.

The Pentecostals also may have whacky ideas, as you put it.
But they do NOT change the nature of God.
THIS is the problem with the reformed faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

so God shouldnt punish the wicked ?

that's a containment of mans will .he choose evil ,God overrides it and slays him for that act .no different then,lawful moral coercion of woman who don't want a child to carry it to term and put the child to be adopted

Did I say God shouldn't punish the wicked?

And I don't understand what you're getting at with the second paragraph....

 

[GodsGrace]

the older I,get ,the evil I,see in the media and local things I see and hear and do I see i am evil and others are as well .there is no good in me .

perhaps it my time in anarchist Afghanistan that ruined me .

7 years old selling drugs ,offering protisututes ,taking up,arms to kill us
the cops killed for robbing lawful land owners of their land and the fire fight to right that and we stayed out per ordered ,girls beat for looking at us ,children treated as cattle ,boys valued over girls.

women as second class ,beaten etc .mutilated babies by burns from scolding water poured in them as punishment

My gosh Jason.
I'm truly sorry for all you had to see and endure.
All you say above causes much pain to me....so much
that I try not to think about these things even though I know
they exist.

So,,, what do you think?
Did GOD predestinate all this evil?
Calvin said that God predestinated everything
about a man --- everything that man thinks and does.

THIS is why I will not serve a God that calvinists represent.

 

[jasonc]

Did I say God shouldn't punish the wicked?

And I don't understand what you're getting at with the second paragraph....

irs ,don't pay your taxes ,cops come with the threat of force and arrest you ,resist ,the response escalates In propertion.

that's coercion .

in so called America land of the free ,you are coerced to fund abortions ,sex changes. for transgender in the military and in prison

coercion isn't simply not a word you can't simply use for criminal acts .

 

[jasonc]

My gosh Jason.
I'm truly sorry for all you had to see and endure.
All you say above causes much pain to me....so much
that I try not to think about these things even though I know
they exist.

So,,, what do you think?
Did GOD predestinate all this evil?
Calvin said that God predestinated everything
about a man --- everything that man thinks and does.

THIS is why I will not serve a God that calvinists represent.

you think that doesn't happen in America ?

oh it has in the past ,and more recent see the kill dozer and why he did avenge himself .

or how in florid a during the Seminoles wars ,chikdren were slain and bounty were awarded for Seminoles killed .

that's the seminole guide recollection who saved lives by misleading the army

DONT ASSUME THAT I AM A CALVINIST BUT I refuse to believe that man by himself will be so pure he will choose Good to the point God has to accept him in,heaven .

we are all capable ,covid should be the teller for you .how the people reacted and the govt acted is of no shock ,I akready thought it would go down this way .the double standards ,the non compliant and unpushiable elite ,the sheep and those that do care and those that don't

 

[jasonc]

Three threads on the reformed is nowhere enough.

But some comments re your post:

1. What does Catholicism have to do with free will or calvinism?
They may have some doctrine that Protestants do not agree with,
but at least they make some SENSE!

Calvinism makes no logical sense and I have to hear that it's
because some things of God are a mystery. I don't believe God inspired
the N.T. to be written so we could NOT know Him.

The Pentecostals also may have whacky ideas, as you put it.
But they do NOT change the nature of God.
THIS is the problem with the reformed faith.

oh i don't know ,may be i should find the few churchs that fit your logic

shall It be pentacolism with female pastors and prosperity gospels ?
or those that don't .most non charismatic barely even mention the Holy ghost .its in passing ,I know .ask jlb on what He ,the Holy Spirit will do in services ,then ask the opposite ,and two Gods will be seen .

God is felt,most non charismatic are not aware of that side .