No answers for problem of evil

[PeterJens]

In another thread, wondering (also include JLB) stated:

I'll deal with these issues only one at a time:

1. If we go back to the beginning of time "if we want to go back far enough, we find that there is no real answer to evil" because in the Garden there was "the tree of good and evil. Where did the evil come from?"

Gen 1:31 (NIV) states: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day". Then there was the challenge by God to Adam:


It literally was not 'the tree of good and evil' but 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' OR 'the tree of the knowing of good and evil' (Lenski 1942:127). There is only one tree. The meaning here is similar to Deut 6:4-6 and Matt 22:36-38: The call is for all human beings, especially believers to love and obey the Creator God.

These 2 verses are the climax of the whole human race. What happened here flowed on to all human beings. God did not make a tree of evil. He made one tree and there was nothing especially different with this tree. In the text there is no indication this tree was different from any other tree. What was different was that Adam was confronted with a choice - thus indicating the first human being had the ability, given by God, to agree with God or disagree with him.

Francis Schaeffer put it this way:


Evil is a result of the risky gift of free will. When God promised 'death' would come because of disobedience, he did not refer to physical death as Adam & Eve continued to live and reproduce. So 'death' here refers to inner spiritual separation from God.

We must not overlook the fact that this account in Gen 2 confirms the fact that God gave Adam the gift of freedom of the will.

See, 'Who is responsible for evil?' (Ravi Zacharias)

I'll deal with these topics from wondering later:

1. Lucifer fell from grace because of pride: "Where did this sin of pride come from?"
2. "How is it that A and E ate of the fruit if they were still innocent and had not eaten from the tree yet? WHAT made them eat?"
3. "I still haven't found the answer and most believe we cannot really know this."

Oz

Works consulted
Leupold, H C 1942. Exposition of Genesis, vol 1 (chapters 1-19). London: Evangelical Press.
Schaeffer, F A 1972. Genesis in space and time. London: Hodder and Stoughton (1976. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press).

The problem of evil is bound with the problem of good.

In Hinduism the gods are neither good or evil, they are both, because implicitly the boundary between the two is defined by the observer. It is why absolute power corrupts absolutely because we define good as that which agrees with us, and evil as everything else.

What we know is we are born with this sense of morality, the right thing to do, which pulls at our hearts and that which does not. God declared simply, He has the clear insight as to where we can stay focused in the right place. And it is this testimony which I whole heartedly agree with, Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

What is evil? Doing what we have been told not to do?
Saving someones life? Killing someone?
Taking property? Giving a gift to another?

Once you begin to realise context, permission, power, ownership, justice, action and reaction are all involved. Group guilt, group conformity, knowledge are all relevant.

Some feel the process of life itself is innately evil, and only God himself is good, and we can never achieve forgiveness, or holiness. To emphasis this is not true, the gospel writers wanted to emphasis who was holy.

During the reign of Herod king of Judea, there lived a priest named Zechariah who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and he had a wife named Elizabeth, who was a descendant of Aaron.
They were both righteous in the sight of God, following all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-6

Many argue from a biased viewpoint, and regard Gods approval or condemnation as absolute and irrevocable. But until the light is in our hearts, how can we hope to know true freedom.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is evil? Doing what we have been told not to do?
Saving someones life? Killing someone?
Taking property? Giving a gift to another?

Once you begin to realise context, permission, power, ownership, justice, action and reaction are all involved. Group guilt, group conformity, knowledge are all relevant.

Some feel the process of life itself is innately evil, and only God himself is good, and we can never achieve forgiveness, or holiness. To emphasis this is not true, the gospel writers wanted to emphasis who was holy.

During the reign of Herod king of Judea, there lived a priest named Zechariah who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and he had a wife named Elizabeth, who was a descendant of Aaron.
They were both righteous in the sight of God, following all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-6

Many argue from a biased viewpoint, and regard Gods approval or condemnation as absolute and irrevocable. But until the light is in our hearts, how can we hope to know true freedom.

Hi Peter,
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Free from what?
As far as I can tell for the reason Jesus came to earht:
To free us from the domination of satan...to make it possible for us to serve God with the heart.

True freedom is freedom from the power of the evil one. He loves to oppress us and make us feel terrible...but if we follow the way of Jesus then we can feel the peace that was originally given to us by God, our creator. (well, maybe not THAT kind of peace! --- that is lost forever).

I think of evil as anything that is not good.
I can't think of anything that is in a middle ground.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

Anyway,,,Happy New Year.
I wish the best for you.

 

[WIP]

Even if all men without exception might have had an opportunity to believe and have their sins paid by Jesus death, it is clear that the sins of all men without exception were not forgiven by Jesus on the Cross. That would be UNIVERSALISM.

A thought crossed my mind and I haven't taken the time to research a specific point but wanted to throw this out there for discussion to see what others have to say.

Is it possible that Jesus' death did in fact provide forgiveness for all (1 John 2:2) but for those that refuse to accept it therefore reject it and remain lost (John 12:48)? In other words, the gift of forgiveness is on the table but it is up to us to acknowledge and embrace that gift.

 

[WIP]

What is evil? Doing what we have been told not to do?
Saving someones life? Killing someone?
Taking property? Giving a gift to another?

Good question. Is it possible that we try too hard to define what it is rather than accepting God's definition? I believe evil is anything contrary to the will of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question. Is it possible that we try too hard to define what it is rather than accepting God's definition? I believe evil is anything contrary to the will of God.

This would explain Moral Evil
But it would not explain Natural Evil: Earthquakes, Hurricanes,,,anything in nature that is not good.

Evil is more than what is contrary to God....that would be sin.

KJV Dictionary Definition: evil
evil
E'VIL, a. e'vl. Heb. to be unjust or injurious, to defraud.

1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.

Some evil beast hath devoured him. Gen.37.

2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; an evil generation.

3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.

E'VIL, n. Evil is natural or moral. Natural evil is any thing which produces pain, distress, loss or calamity, or which in any way disturbs the peace, impairs the happiness, or destroys the perfection of natural beings.

Moral evil is any deviation of a moral agent from the rules of conduct prescribed to him by God, or by legitimate human authority; or it is any violation of the plain principles of justice and rectitude.

source: https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/evil.html

 

[WIP]

This would explain Moral Evil
But it would not explain Natural Evil: Earthquakes, Hurricanes,,,anything in nature that is not good.

But this is part of my point. Are these things evil by our definition or God's. Are they evil because we don't like them and so we define them so?

 

[GodsGrace]

But this is part of my point. Are these things evil by our definition or God's. Are they evil because we don't like them and so we define them so?

Well, how could a hurricane be good?
The bible itself presents us with choice and with good and evil.
I'd say that God originally defined evil...it was HE that told Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....so God defines these two terms...but we also have to come to some understanding of them as Christian doctrine.

They're evil because they're not good...they're evil because they're evil.

Just because we don't like something does not make it evil.
Evil is a big concept.

For instance, taking drugs is very bad..it is CAUSED by the evil in the world...by the enemy, if we could understand that better.
It's a part of the problem of evil.

I think understanding evil is very important in understanding our faith. God did not desire us to know evil -- and thus the warning to Adam. (unfortunately Adam did not obey God).

 

[jasonc]

1.lightning.very deadly ,but,needful for nitrogen.
2.hurricanes often ,have ended droughts.
3. Rain,excessive rain can be bad here but like number 2 restored the much needed water table and prevent or reduce fires.
4.fires ,often old trees and overgrowth have been burned and nature is better off .

 

[for_his_glory]

A thought crossed my mind and I haven't taken the time to research a specific point but wanted to throw this out there for discussion to see what others have to say.

Is it possible that Jesus' death did in fact provide forgiveness for all (1 John 2:2) but for those that refuse to accept it therefore reject it and remain lost (John 12:48)? In other words, the gift of forgiveness is on the table but it is up to us to acknowledge and embrace that gift.

Exactly. If one rejects a free gift then it is their loss as in this case that those who reject Christ have already damned themselves in judgement for they are ignorant of Christ and have no desire for Him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[WIP]

1.lightning.very deadly ,but,needful for nitrogen.
2.hurricanes often ,have ended droughts.
3. Rain,excessive rain can be bad here but like number 2 restored the much needed water table and prevent or reduce fires.
4.fires ,often old trees and overgrowth have been burned and nature is better off .

Everything is possible with God and that includes good coming from what we perceive as evil events or things.

 

[OzSpen]

I think understanding evil is very important in understanding our faith. God did not desire us to know evil -- and thus the warning to Adam. (unfortunately Adam did not obey God).

wondering,

Please correct me if I got you wrong. In this thread you have been saying there is no answer to the problem of evil. Yet, in this one paragraph you state that understanding evil is important to understand our faith. How can we grow in faith if we don't understand evil?

Well, how could a hurricane be good?

Down Under they're called cyclones. A hurricane/cyclone could bring good by:

• breaking a drought, which we desperately need in Australia right now;
• putting out the bush fires that are raging across Australia;
• It exposes the faulty infrastructure on our roads and the second-class building codes that builders try to get away with.
• Sometimes rivers and streams need to be flushed out for the health of the ecosystem.
• It can cause sensitive people to think of eternal issues, like what happens at death. See my new article: Evidence for the afterlife.
• I know that when I've been subjected to cyclones and floods, it has given many opportunities to raise spiritual issues with secular Aussies. My wife and I lost everything we owned in the 1974 Brisbane floods.
• God has his reasons for sending catastrophies. Ask Job, Noah, Amos and Joel. Why did God put the apostle Paul through such trauma in his taking the Gospel to a lost world?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This would explain Moral Evil
But it would not explain Natural Evil: Earthquakes, Hurricanes,,,anything in nature that is not good.

wondering,

I've been holding off on tackling the cause of natural evil because I though I could be wasting my time. Didn't you say somewhere in this thread that there is no answer to the problem of evil. Wouldn't that include natural evil? Are you open to discussing natural evil or is it a closed book for you?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

wondering,

Please correct me if I got you wrong. In this thread you have been saying there is no answer to the problem of evil. Yet, in this one paragraph you state that understanding evil is important to understand our faith. How can we grow in faith if we don't understand evil?



Down Under they're called cyclones. A hurricane/cyclone could bring good by:

• breaking a drought, which we desperately need in Australia right now;
• putting out the bush fires that are raging across Australia;
• It exposes the faulty infrastructure on our roads and the second-class building codes that builders try to get away with.
• Sometimes rivers and streams need to be flushed out for the health of the ecosystem.
• It can cause sensitive people to think of eternal issues, like what happens at death. See my new article: Evidence for the afterlife.
• I know that when I've been subjected to cyclones and floods, it has given many opportunities to raise spiritual issues with secular Aussies. My wife and I lost everything we owned in the 1974 Brisbane floods.
• God has his reasons for sending catastrophies. Ask Job, Noah, Amos and Joel. Why did God put the apostle Paul through such trauma in his taking the Gospel to a lost world?

Oz

Cyclone are in the Pacific ,California and Hawaii get them ,typhoons also .These are a bit stronger .

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Please correct me if I got you wrong. In this thread you have been saying there is no answer to the problem of evil. Yet, in this one paragraph you state that understanding evil is important to understand our faith. How can we grow in faith if we don't understand evil?

Hi Oz,
I believe that evil exists,,,I just don't know (nor do many theologians) know from where it originated.

I believe a person has to come to terms with evil in some way. I've had problems,,,my husband has parkinson's and has other problems right now that have been going on for months. This is caused by the evil in the world.

The way I understand evil could help me to accept this, or it could bring up many questions as to why it has to happen or why God caused this to happen to us, etc.

It's very important to understand evil,,even though we may not really know from where it originated. And I'm going further back than Isaiah and the fall of the angels.

Down Under they're called cyclones. A hurricane/cyclone could bring good by:

• breaking a drought, which we desperately need in Australia right now;
• putting out the bush fires that are raging across Australia;
• It exposes the faulty infrastructure on our roads and the second-class building codes that builders try to get away with.
• Sometimes rivers and streams need to be flushed out for the health of the ecosystem.
• It can cause sensitive people to think of eternal issues, like what happens at death. See my new article: Evidence for the afterlife.
• I know that when I've been subjected to cyclones and floods, it has given many opportunities to raise spiritual issues with secular Aussies. My wife and I lost everything we owned in the 1974 Brisbane floods.
• God has his reasons for sending catastrophies. Ask Job, Noah, Amos and Joel. Why did God put the apostle Paul through such trauma in his taking the Gospel to a lost world?

Oz

God could cause evil for the good. I'm thinking of Romans 8:28 but it's much deeper than that even. God is sovereign and will do as He wills.

But in your last sentence you said God sends catastrophies. So you think God sends evil for one reason or another?

I'm going to print out your article and let my husband read it. He's not a believer...due to his condition he has to think about death all the time...but belief does not become a part of that thinking - unfortunately.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I've been holding off on tackling the cause of natural evil because I though I could be wasting my time. Didn't you say somewhere in this thread that there is no answer to the problem of evil. Wouldn't that include natural evil? Are you open to discussing natural evil or is it a closed book for you?

Oz

The printer is printing.
It looks like a great article,,,as usual.
Everyone should read this as it could come in handy when witnessing.

As to natural evil...of course it's a closed book for me.

I'm not discussing evil per se.....but its origination.

My road leads me to God,,,but I don't believe God created evil...so; what about dualism? That seems out of the question too...so......??

 

[WIP]

Hi Oz,
I believe that evil exists,,,I just don't know (nor do many theologians) know from where it originated.

I believe a person has to come to terms with evil in some way. I've had problems,,,my husband has parkinson's and has other problems right now that have been going on for months. This is caused by the evil in the world.

The way I understand evil could help me to accept this, or it could bring up many questions as to why it has to happen or why God caused this to happen to us, etc.

It's very important to understand evil,,even though we may not really know from where it originated. And I'm going further back than Isaiah and the fall of the angels.





God could cause evil for the good. I'm thinking of Romans 8:28 but it's much deeper than that even. God is sovereign and will do as He wills.

But in your last sentence you said God sends catastrophies. So you think God sends evil for one reason or another?

I'm going to print out your article and let my husband read it. He's not a believer...due to his condition he has to think about death all the time...but belief does not become a part of that thinking - unfortunately.

Can we have good without evil? I don't mean to be disrespectful as my grandfather suffered from Parkinson's but imagine if Parkinson's was a normal condition? Would we still consider it to be evil?

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter,
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Free from what?
As far as I can tell for the reason Jesus came to earht:
To free us from the domination of satan...to make it possible for us to serve God with the heart.

True freedom is freedom from the power of the evil one. He loves to oppress us and make us feel terrible...but if we follow the way of Jesus then we can feel the peace that was originally given to us by God, our creator. (well, maybe not THAT kind of peace! --- that is lost forever).

I think of evil as anything that is not good.
I can't think of anything that is in a middle ground.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

Anyway,,,Happy New Year.
I wish the best for you.

Happy new year, dear lady.
It is a good question, the truth shall set us free.

For me this freedom is a choice of direction. What is our focus, what is most important, what dominates? As a youngster these questions loomed large, how would I found my life and what would be the guiding principles?

If one focuses just on our desires or perceptions, then it appears we are trapped in a descending spiral of failure and disappointment. But Jesus appears to be shinning an eternal light, a doorway, that if we sow to it, we reap eternal significance and fruit that will never fade. Free will seems to focus on this standing on the rock, from which grows the ability to see what is good and evil.

Hebrews seems to allude to this being what maturity is.
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
Heb 5:14

What has struck me is how where ever we walk, we tend to speak to ourselves that it is ok, and we made the right choices. It is why those who leave their partners for another, always convince themselves it made sense, when in reality denial, bitterness, unforgiveness, hurt lie at the root often, and what comes from this is always yet more problems than resolutions. Just start talking to people in any civil war, they both have stories that justify the most terrible actions and feelings, not seeing the sin that lies at the bottom of both.

The pure in heart will see God, seems to be the only place we can begin to see as God sees. God bless you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Happy new year, dear lady.
It is a good question, the truth shall set us free.

For me this freedom is a choice of direction. What is our focus, what is most important, what dominates? As a youngster these questions loomed large, how would I found my life and what would be the guiding principles?

If one focuses just on our desires or perceptions, then it appears we are trapped in a descending spiral of failure and disappointment. But Jesus appears to be shinning an eternal light, a doorway, that if we sow to it, we reap eternal significance and fruit that will never fade. Free will seems to focus on this standing on the rock, from which grows the ability to see what is good and evil.

Hebrews seems to allude to this being what maturity is.
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
Heb 5:14

What has struck me is how where ever we walk, we tend to speak to ourselves that it is ok, and we made the right choices. It is why those who leave their partners for another, always convince themselves it made sense, when in reality denial, bitterness, unforgiveness, hurt lie at the root often, and what comes from this is always yet more problems than resolutions. Just start talking to people in any civil war, they both have stories that justify the most terrible actions and feelings, not seeing the sin that lies at the bottom of both.

The pure in heart will see God, seems to be the only place we can begin to see as God sees. God bless you.

Great example....
Satan tricks us with his lies.
He tells many they are unhappy and to seek happiness elsewhere...
This leads only to what you've posted: denial, bitterness, unforgiveness and hurt.

Sometimes God's way seems difficult -- but the results are peace.
Satan's way seems easy and OK -- but the result is "death".

 

[GodsGrace]

Can we have good without evil? I don't mean to be disrespectful as my grandfather suffered from Parkinson's but imagine if Parkinson's was a normal condition? Would we still consider it to be evil?

Oh yes. Parkinson's would be evil even if it were normal.
It's not good...it's bad.

Can we have good without evil?
I hear this all the time.
You know the old joke:
Q: Why are you hitting your head against the wall?!
A: Because it feels so good when I stop.

You get a pet: a dog, a cat.
You want it to enjoy your nice warm home.
So you let it spend the night out in the freezing cold every now and then.

Is this what you mean?
Is this what God does to us?

If YOU were making a world for your pet,,,wouldn't you make a nice, comfy world for him?