No answers for problem of evil

[GodsGrace]

I'm wondering how much of a difference there is between God allowing something to happen and God directly causing it. Considering how he knows everything, it's hard for me to grasp the notion that there's any difference at all between the things he "allows" and the things he "causes". He knows every consequence of the butterfly effect when he "causes" something to happen, and everything he "allows" is a consequence of something he at one point caused "directly".

There's a big difference between allowing something to happen and causing it to happen. Let's take a couple of every day examples:

A child doesn't study for a test. You know he's going to fail...but you let it happen. OR....you score a test low and cause that child to fail.

Your son is going to be hurt by some bad news a friend is going to tell him...you know this beforehand but do not get mixed up in his business. OR...YOU create the bad news that is going to hurt your son.

My girlfriend is having an affair but I keep out of it and allow it to go as it will...OR...I tell her husband about this and I cause their marriage to fall apart.

Do you not see a difference?

Knowing the effects of the butterfly effect down to the last person does NOT mean God caused the problem.

The log falls off the truck...it hits the van...the van falls into the lake...the persons in the van die.

Did GOD cause the log to fall off the truck?
Or did He just allow the effects?

Well, what is a soul? What qualities does a soul have all by itself? What information does it contain? How and when is it created? If God lifts up his hands when a soul is being "made" and leaves it up to random chance, that's one thing. If God designs the thing in whole and puts in all the information he wants to be there, that puts free-will into question.

A soul is given to a person upon conception. It's empty. It has good in it and bad in it. I won't get into nature/nurture...but it will have different things affecting it as the child grows. The soul changes as time passes...the soul then becomes affected by whether or not we choose God...our Spirit affects our Soul.

We have free will and the bible, including the O.T. is full of verses proving this. If we do not have free will,,,how could God possibly be happy with our love? Would YOU be happy if you forced a girl to love you or would you want it to be by free will? Imagine how much more God desires free will love,,,being the absolute sovereign being that He is.

We could go through free will if you wish.

James 1:17 seems like a very important verse.

Great post.
Every good thing is from the Father.
Which just shows that He does NOT cause evil to happen.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Let's take a couple of every day examples:

Things are a little different when you know everything with certainty AND have the power to do anything. It's very difficult to compare God to humans. If you try and think of God like a doctor or a parent, and compare them one to one as much as you can, it eventually falls apart, especially when you take hell into account.

If I was the one who made the truck, and did so negligently, knowing that if a log is put on it the person driving might die, am I responsible? If there was a hypothetical, lesser diety, who could miraculously cause plagues and storms, but they weren't all knowing or all good, I don't know how well you'd look upon them.

A soul is given to a person upon conception. It's empty. It has good in it and bad in it. I won't get into nature/nurture.

Nature/nurture is exactly what i'm curious about. If souls all start equally empty, wouldn't nature not exist? Or is nature seperate from the soul somehow? I don't know how much an "empty" soul can enjoy heaven. Sure new borns and the mentally handicapped get to go to heaven, but they're souls haven't been "filled". No memories, no personality, nothing. If in heaven nobody keeps their "nature", what's left?

If we do not have free will,,,how could God possibly be happy with our love?

I've got absolutely no clue. I wonder what other people think about this.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Things are a little different when you know everything with certainty AND have the power to do anything. It's very difficult to compare God to humans. If you try and think of God like a doctor or a parent, and compare them one to one as much as you can, it eventually falls apart, especially when you take hell into account.

If I was the one who made the truck, and did so negligently, knowing that if a log is put on it the person driving might die, am I responsible? If there was a hypothetical, lesser diety, who could miraculously cause plagues and storms, but they weren't all knowing or all good, I don't know how well you'd look upon them.


Nature/nurture is exactly what i'm curious about. If souls all start equally empty, wouldn't nature not exist? Or is nature seperate from the soul somehow? I don't know how much an "empty" soul can enjoy heaven. Sure new borns and the mentally handicapped get to go to heaven, but they're souls haven't been "filled". No memories, no personality, nothing. If in heaven nobody keeps their "nature", what's left?


I've got absolutely no clue. I wonder what other people think about this.

hey. to jump in with an explanation of how God could be pleased with our love if we don't have sort of free will Arminians insist upon (I am not God, I do lean towards a Calvinist take on Scripture), I'll steal from RC Sproul...

(to paraphrase, from memory) it isn't that God is so horrible, as to allow people to be born into the world only to end up in Hell. The miracle is that He chooses to set aside a people for salvation.

the other issue is...God makes it pretty clear that He doesn't need us. For this, check out: Psalm 50:7-15.

Even -if- we humans do have free will, ours is at least somewhat limited. we have the free will of the creature, not the Creator. its...existing in the context of a fallen, corrupted world, where everything and everyone is stained by sin.

(btw--I tried to just quote the tail end of the message, but it wasn't happening. so there you go.)

 

[OzSpen]

The actual parting of the sea was not evil.
It was to further good -- the escape of the slaves from Egypt.

When the Egyptians were killed by it, it became evil....but it was due to their own decision. (Not God's).

wondering,

No, when Pharaoh and the Egyptians were killed in the Red Sea, the Lord says:

They tried to run away, but the Lord drowned them in the sea. The water came and covered the chariots, the cavalry, and the whole Egyptian army that had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them was left alive. But the sea had made a wall of water on each side of the Israelites; so they walked through on dry land.​

​

On that day, when the Israelites saw the bodies of the Egyptians washed up on the shore, they knew that the Lord had saved them. Because of the mighty power he had used against the Egyptians, the Israelites worshiped him and trusted him and his servant Moses.....​

'With the tremendous force​

of your right arm, our Lord,​

you crushed your enemies.​

What a great victory was yours,​

as you defeated everyone​

who opposed you.​

Your fiery anger wiped them out,​

as though they were straw....​

​

When Pharaoh’s horses, chariots, and charioteers rushed into the sea, the Lord brought the water crashing down on them. But the people of Israel had walked through the middle of the sea on dry ground!... ' (Ex 14:27-29; 15:6-7 NLT).​

Therefore, the drowning of the Egyptians by the order of God did not 'become evil'. That would be God committing evil. It was a direct judgment on the Egyptians from the decree of God. He gave Pharoah many warnings through the miracles performed in his presence but Pharoah was becoming hardened in his heart.

I urge you not to attribute to God his actions as 'becoming evil' as that makes his actions those of evil (contra Isa 45:7; 57:15; 1 Jn 1:5).

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Things are a little different when you know everything with certainty AND have the power to do anything. It's very difficult to compare God to humans. If you try and think of God like a doctor or a parent, and compare them one to one as much as you can, it eventually falls apart, especially when you take hell into account.

I also dislike comparing God to a human...but it was a valid example. The examples I gave allowed for the person to know everything AND have the power to do something about it.
I don't think of God as a doctor or parent....
I think of Him as God. The one who created everything out of nothing.

If I was the one who made the truck, and did so negligently, knowing that if a log is put on it the person driving might die, am I responsible? If there was a hypothetical, lesser diety, who could miraculously cause plagues and storms, but they weren't all knowing or all good, I don't know how well you'd look upon them.

If you made the truck negligently,,,of course you'd be responsible for the person's death - even if no one ever accused you, you'd still be morally responsible.

As to the lesser diety....Christians don't believe in a lesser diety.
There is only ONE GOD...
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear O Israel! The LORD is our God,
The LORD is one!

I do believe there is only one God.

Nature/nurture is exactly what i'm curious about. If souls all start equally empty, wouldn't nature not exist? Or is nature seperate from the soul somehow? I don't know how much an "empty" soul can enjoy heaven. Sure new borns and the mentally handicapped get to go to heaven, but they're souls haven't been "filled". No memories, no personality, nothing. If in heaven nobody keeps their "nature", what's left?

A soul has nothing to do with nature. Nature exists even if there were no souls at all on this earth. In the Garden of Eden God prepared the earth FIRST,,,and then He made man. Nature could exist without any souls.

I have been to hospitals where there are children that don't even know they're alive. Are their souls empty? Do they not know when they feel pain? Or do they feel movement? Does this affect them somehow? I don't think any soul is empty....I said they start out empty, but they get filled.

We can't know who has memories and who does not. But if a person is paralyzed, do you think they're paralyzed even in heaven? Absolutely not. In heaven there will be no more weeping, or mourning, or tears. Rev 21:4. Even those children will be running and happy to meet their Lord. We will have our glorified bodies in heaven. The steps are: justification, sanctification, glorification.

I've got absolutely no clue. I wonder what other people think about this.

You were responding to my question about love and how YOU would like to be loved by someone that you forced to love you.

So let's forget about the human examples and go to scripture:
This is what the bible says about free will, or I should say, this is how we can know that we have free will:

Joshua 24:15 Joshua asks the Israelites to choose between serving God and serving false gods.
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Choice denotes free will to make that choice.
The O.T. speaks of free will offerings,,,
Leviticus 7:16
16‘But if the sacrifice of his offering is a votive or a freewill offering, it shall be eaten on the day that he offers his sacrifice, and on the next day what is left of it may be eaten;

Psalm 54:6
6Willingly I will sacrifice to You;
I will give thanks to Your name, O LORD, for it is good.


The N.T. is full of choice and free will:
John 20:31
But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

It's up to us to believe or not.

and more....

 

[daninthelionsden]

So let's see if I can wrap my puny brain around this problem of evil. The capacity for evil was created the very moment God created autonomous beings. Autonomy breeds selfishness and selfishness breeds sin and sin = evil. Lucifer was the first, followed by some angels. Man was created perfect thus he had perfect environment(Eden). Man had the capacity for evil, became selfish(with a little help), became sinful(chronically sinful) and natural sin fell upon the Earth(consequences). The Earth suffered even more with the collapse of the canopy(firmament) due to the flood(caused by human sin). And will collapse further as described in Revelation again caused by increased human sin(greatly assisted by the "helper" of sin).
Christ intervened as God in human form to show us how to live and to deliver us from ourselves(and from the one who helped us sin). The laws of physics/nature were created to give us a reference point in a physical world, lest there be chaos. These laws were designed for a perfect world in order for us to take full advantage of them. In a fallen world these laws can just as well work against us(accidents, natural disasters, disease....etc). God so loved the World and so it exists as an inhabitable planet. As sin grows, it will become more and more like Venus or Mars or Saturn or any other dead planet until Christ intervenes one last time upon His return.
Just trying to get a handle on this thread.....am I in the ballpark at least????

 

[GodsGrace]

So let's see if I can wrap my puny brain around this problem of evil. The capacity for evil was created the very moment God created autonomous beings. Autonomy breeds selfishness and selfishness breeds sin and sin = evil. Lucifer was the first, followed by some angels. Man was created perfect thus he had perfect environment(Eden). Man had the capacity for evil, became selfish(with a little help), became sinful(chronically sinful) and natural sin fell upon the Earth(consequences). The Earth suffered even more with the collapse of the canopy(firmament) due to the flood(caused by human sin). And will collapse further as described in Revelation again caused by increased human sin(greatly assisted by the "helper" of sin).
Christ intervened as God in human form to show us how to live and to deliver us from ourselves(and from the one who helped us sin). The laws of physics/nature were created to give us a reference point in a physical world, lest there be chaos. These laws were designed for a perfect world in order for us to take full advantage of them. In a fallen world these laws can just as well work against us(accidents, natural disasters, disease....etc). God so loved the World and so it exists as an inhabitable planet. As sin grows, it will become more and more like Venus or Mars or Saturn or any other dead planet until Christ intervenes one last time upon His return.
Just trying to get a handle on this thread.....am I in the ballpark at least????

Who you askin??!!
Didn't evil have to exist BEFORE man was created?
Otherwise, everything you've written is 100%.

Tomorrow....

 

[daninthelionsden]

Who you askin??!!
Didn't evil have to exist BEFORE man was created?
Otherwise, everything you've written is 100%.

Tomorrow....

Lol..I'm asking any of you with brains more capable than mine....which is most people...maybe all people on this thread. Yes. Evil existed when God created Lucifer and angels. This was before Man.

 

[OzSpen]

Who you askin??!!
Didn't evil have to exist BEFORE man was created?
Otherwise, everything you've written is 100%.

Tomorrow....

wondering,

See, 'Who made Satan?'

Oz

 

[John Doe Smith]

The examples I gave allowed for the person to know everything AND have the power to do something about it.

In every example, the situation the other person was in had nothing to do with anything "you" ever did. "You" were completely uninvolved with the student not studying or the infedelity. "You" didn't put on very loud music knowing for a fact it would prevent the student from studying, or invite a person over who you know would play loud music which you know would prevent the student from studying and so on. We weren't in control of everything since anything existed.

As to the lesser diety....Christians don't believe in a lesser diety.
There is only ONE GOD...

I never sugested any other diety exists.

A soul has nothing to do with nature. Nature exists even if there were no souls at all on this earth. In the Garden of Eden God prepared the earth FIRST,,,and then He made man. Nature could exist without any souls.

By nature I didn't mean trees and waterfalls, I meant a person's fundemental character.

but they get filled.

?

You were responding to my question about love and how YOU would like to be loved by someone that you forced to love you.

I don't know how much I would like or dislike that. I also don't know why I'd love somebody who I don't need and gives me nothing I don't already have in infinite abundance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol..I'm asking any of you with brains more capable than mine....which is most people...maybe all people on this thread. Yes. Evil existed when God created Lucifer and angels. This was before Man.

Don't underestimate yourself!


OK. So you're actually understanding what I'm saying.
So,,,you said that evil already existed when God created Lucifer.
Lucifer fell due to pride. Pride is a sin.
So sin must have existed before Lucifer fell since it's sin that caused him to fall.

So now we're back at the beginning which is where I've been trying to get all along.

So now we're faced with the biggest Christian dilemma. WHY or WHERE did this evil originate?

Some might think with God...as the reformed do. They say that God created EVERYTHING,,,even evil and that WE, the rest of Christianity, are not able to accept this.

I don't believe this can be true due to the nature of God.
IF God created evil, then I'd be inclined to leave Christianity immediately.

So, you see, God certainly didn't create evil...and a different god could not have created it --- ?? I mean, could it be that there are two forces from the very beginning?? I know that the bible does not teach this...but can we be sure? This is known as dualism and is heretical.

Here we are...left with no answer!
Except that we are to trust our God and believe in HIM only.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

See, 'Who made Satan?'

Oz

Just read it Oz.
It's the best article on this that I've read so far.

The last paragraph explains what I've been saying.
I'll try to post some writing from it and comment:

Genesis of the Devil
The Bible never explicitly tells us where Satan originated. He presumably came into existence sometime after the creation of God’s perfect world (Gen 1:31) prior to his appearance in Eden (Gen. 3:1). Despite these unknowns, however, there are at least five things we can say with certainty.

The above is confirming what I've been trying to say.
We are not told how satan originated. And since HE is the evil one...who encompasses evil...we thus could not know even where evil originates --- since it does NOT originate with him. For satan to exist...evil had to ALREADY exist.

It goes on to list 5 possible reasons why satan exists.
The number 1 is that God created him because He created everything. But it states that this is not possible because God is all-good and created everything good.

Number 2 is:
2. God created him good.

As the source of all goodness, beauty, and truth, God creates only what’s consistent with his nature—things that are themselves good, beautiful, and true. Every facet of creation, whether in heaven or on earth, was originally “very good.” As Paul simply observes, “Everything created by God is good” (1 Tim. 4:4). His character is wholly pure; there isn’t a shred of darkness or deception in him (1 John 1:5; James 1:13). And Satan was created as an angel to serve and honor this great God.

Obviously, something went wrong.

Number 3 goes on to tell us the story of how some angels rebelled.

But,,,even as daninthelionsden has posted,,,evil had to exist before this or WHAT would have CAUSED these disobedient angels to rebel??

Hence, here begins the big problem in the Christian world that seeks an answer we are not given.

Number 4 tells us how satan is the leader of his realm.
“Fallen angels are not treated as evil by creation but as followers of Satan in his mutiny,” Michael Horton explains. “At one time the most glorious and powerful angelic agent, Satan was filled with pride and plotted the attempted heavenly coup.”

5. Satan’s evil came from within himself.

No one was around to tempt and lure Satan into sin; his evil arose from within. It’s not surprising, then, that Jesus would call him “the father of lies” and “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44)—language hearkening back to the outset of history.

Number 5 tells us that evil came from within satan.
Does this make any sense? How did the evil get into him??
No,,,this is too easy of an answer.

Then the article speaks about the:

Lingering Questions
We are swimming in the deep end of the mystery pool, with many unanswered questions on which the Scriptures are simply silent. How could a morally pure creature rebel against God? Why did the other angels join the revolt? When did all of this happen?

Even though Christians don’t know all the answers, we know the God who does. And we know that “the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).

If you’re following King Jesus, take heart. Your enemy was defeated (Col. 2:13–15), he is being defeated (Eph. 6:10–20), and he will be defeated (Rom. 16:20). Yes, he “prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour” (1 Pet. 5:8), but at Jesus’s death he was defanged, and at Jesus’s return he’ll be destroyed.

In the meantime, his havoc extends only as far as God’s hand allows.

I couldn't agree more with the underlined....
Which is the problem we face in our Christian faith.
(not our personal faith...but theologically).

 

[Boaz]

So God needs to forgive?
I always learned that God needs to love and to share that love.

I've come to think that if the bible doesn't give a clear-cut answer, we really shouldn't dwell on the question too much. We'll find out eventually.

Even Jesus felt like the Apostle couldn't understand everything.
John 8:43 (I think).

Amen to not dwelling on questions that God, in His Word, does not give clear cut answers on. We cannot know everything. We are finite. Some things are so far outside our God given boundaries as creatures that our finite minds cannot fathom, let alone understand. He made clear everything we need to be made clear. We know He is perfect because He made that clear. We know He is good because He made that clear. So those things that are not clear are of necessity perfect and good. No matter how things appear from our limited view.

 

[GodsGrace]

In every example, the situation the other person was in had nothing to do with anything "you" ever did. "You" were completely uninvolved with the student not studying or the infedelity. "You" didn't put on very loud music knowing for a fact it would prevent the student from studying, or invite a person over who you know would play loud music which you know would prevent the student from studying and so on. We weren't in control of everything since anything existed.

Right.
Because I don't believe it's GOD that creates the situations we're in. I didn't put on loud music or did I do anything else to influence the situation.

I never sugested any other diety exists.

In post no. 242 you stated:
If there was a hypothetical, lesser diety, who could miraculously cause plagues and storms, but they weren't all knowing or all good, I don't know how well you'd look upon them.

I know you said hypothetically,,,I was just pointing out that this is not a viable choice in Christianity. Some do believe in dualism,,,which is heretical.

By nature I didn't mean trees and waterfalls, I meant a person's fundemental character.

Right. Sorry 'bout that.
I was thinking about how our ambiance could affect how we get a world view...but that is not nature.


I don't know how much I would like or dislike that. I also don't know why I'd love somebody who I don't need and gives me nothing I don't already have in infinite abundance.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe God does need us.
Maybe He needs to share His love.
Maybe we don't understand what He needs us for...
But He did create us for some reason.
It seems to me from the bible that the reason could really be love.
John 3:16
"For God SO LOVED THE WORLD...."

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

1 John 4:9-10
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

and more....

 

[John Doe Smith]

Because I don't believe it's GOD that creates the situations we're in.

How come? When Adam and Eve ate the apple, that didn't surprise God. That didn't go against his expectations. He acted surprised to them, but he wasn't. God has never been surprised ever, by anything or anyone. If we go "further back", the second God created satan, and even the second before, and so on, God knew every single consequence that making satan would have.

Satan never "pulled a fast one" on God. Could God have made satan in such a way that he wouldn't do what he did? Yes. Could God have done things in such a way that Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden today and it would be wonderful? Effortlessly.

Even before creating satan, God knew every last "bad thing" that would happen as a result of that. That's very abstract and hard to wrap your head around. For something that can be visualized and mostly understood, somebody could read Junko Furuta's Wikipedia page and really let all the details sink in. God knew that would be one consequence. This is the only non-heretical answer to evil I think makes sense.

 

[Boaz]

Is

How do I misunderstand calvinism?
The reformed believe that God is sovereign and nothing else is to be considered...even free will is absent because there's a fear this would take away God's sovereignty. A rather silly notion, I must say, since if ANYTHING could take away God's sovereignty --- then what lowly sovereign God we would have! We have free will because God FEARS NOTHING because His sovereignty cannot be taken away from Him.

Also, if God is the author of all, then surely evil would be one of these creations. Including murder, rape, and any other terrible human misadventure since God created everything.

I'm sure different churches teach different calvinistic ideas. Maybe your church is one of them...maybe they're discreet in how doctrine is explained so the church won't become empty....I've l listened to some calvinists explain doctrine, and unless they are purposefully teaching incorrectly, they do not know true calvinism and are teaching something different.

Is it possible that evil is not created (it isn't an entity or being after all) but is just the other side of the coin? I.e. you can't have an up unless there is also a down. You can't have a front without there also being a back. Why did God design this and does that make Him the creator of evil. To me that is one of the questions wee can't answer other than we know, from His own proclamation in His Word that no evil exists in Him, therefore He could not create it. And be at peace with that knowledge.
As for the Calvinist issue, I will make a statement of fact but do not wish to argue this point. It is merely a clarification of Reformed doctrine. I am sure there are individuals or churches that teach man does not have free will. The actual Reformed doctrine does not say that man has no will nor do they deny that man is constantly making choices and acting on them from his own will.Reaping the natural consequences or rewards from those choices. What we teach is in regards to salvation only (other than, of course, that man's will cannot overpower God's will, ever). We believe that because of our fallen nature we will not will to choose God. In that sense we cannot. However we still have the physical, mental ability created in us to choose God. That is what makes us guilty when we don't choose God. We are actually ABLE but UNWILLING. Hope that cleared up some confusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

How come? When Adam and Eve ate the apple, that didn't surprise God. That didn't go against his expectations. He acted surprised to them, but he wasn't. God has never been surprised ever, by anything or anyone. If we go "further back", the second God created satan, and even the second before, and so on, God knew every single consequence that making satan would have.

Satan never "pulled a fast one" on God. Could God have made satan in such a way that he wouldn't do what he did? Yes. Could God have done things in such a way that Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden today and it would be wonderful? Effortlessly.

Even before creating satan, God knew every last "bad thing" that would happen as a result of that. That's very abstract and hard to wrap your head around. For something that can be visualized and mostly understood, somebody could read Junko Furuta's Wikipedia page and really let all the details sink in. God knew that would be one consequence. This is the only non-heretical answer to evil I think makes sense.

I think the answer to this question will clear things up with our discussion:
Are you reformed in your beliefs?
If so,,, then that answers everything.
If not, then there's a problem.

If you believe God causes everything to happen,,,then you are of the reformed faith. This means you believe that God causes murder and hunger, etc.

I agree that God KNEW everything that would happen...but I do not agree that He PREDESTINED everything to happen. That's reformed thinking.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is it possible that evil is not created (it isn't an entity or being after all) but is just the other side of the coin? I.e. you can't have an up unless there is also a down. You can't have a front without there also being a back. Why did God design this and does that make Him the creator of evil. To me that is one of the questions wee can't answer other than we know, from His own proclamation in His Word that no evil exists in Him, therefore He could not create it. And be at peace with that knowledge.

R, anything is possible when it comes to evil because the bible does not teach us where it originated --- so any idea we have is pure conjecture. I also believe God did not create evil and I'm at peace, having understood that we do not know the answer.

As for the Calvinist issue, I will make a statement of fact but do not wish to argue this point. It is merely a clarification of Reformed doctrine. I am sure there are individuals or churches that teach man does not have free will. The actual Reformed doctrine does not say that man has no will nor do they deny that man is constantly making choices and acting on them from his own will.Reaping the natural consequences or rewards from those choices. What we teach is in regards to salvation only (other than, of course, that man's will cannot overpower God's will, ever). We believe that because of our fallen nature we will not will to choose God. In that sense we cannot. However we still have the physical, mental ability created in us to choose God. That is what makes us guilty when we don't choose God. We are actually ABLE but UNWILLING. Hope that cleared up some confusion.

How could the above be true if Luther did not believe in free will but in predestination.

We call it Calvinism these days, but we can refer to it as reformed theology. This would be what has become known as TULIP.

You say your teaching is in salvation only and that, because of our fallen nature, we cannot choose God. But then you say we CAN choose God. Please explain. Here is what you said:
What we teach is in regards to salvation only (other than, of course, that man's will cannot overpower God's will, ever). We believe that because of our fallen nature we will not will to choose God. In that sense we cannot. However we still have the physical, mental ability created in us to choose God.

You say we are ABLE but are UNWILLING.
I agree!

But TULIP states we are NOT ABLE and so it goes:

We are TOTALLY DEPRAVED and so we cannot choose God.
So God chooses us with UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Unconditional Election brings about LIMITED ATONEMENT since it is useless for Jesus to shed blood for the non-elected.

If God chooses us, then of course His grace has to be IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.

And if God's grace is truly irresistible then the elect will PERSEVERE in the faith.

Perhaps you don't attend a true reformed church?
The reformed believe that free will is inconsistent with the Sovereignty of God since only HE predetermines everything.

 

[John Doe Smith]

I think the answer to this question will clear things up with our discussion:
Are you reformed in your beliefs?
If so,,, then that answers everything.
If not, then there's a problem.

If you believe God causes everything to happen,,,then you are of the reformed faith. This means you believe that God causes murder and hunger, etc.

I agree that God KNEW everything that would happen...but I do not agree that He PREDESTINED everything to happen. That's reformed thinking.

I wouldn't consider myself "reformed" and I wouldn't say anything is "predestined". I wouldn't use those words and I don't think in those terms. All I care about is clear cut logical consequences for the information we which we do know with certainty. There's no reason to obfuscate and muddle the crux of the matter with unecessary terminology. The less of that the better. I feel that "omniscient", "all powerful" are the only two technical terms needed to think about this issue.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Don't underestimate yourself!


OK. So you're actually understanding what I'm saying.
So,,,you said that evil already existed when God created Lucifer.
Lucifer fell due to pride. Pride is a sin.
So sin must have existed before Lucifer fell since it's sin that caused him to fall.

So now we're back at the beginning which is where I've been trying to get all along.

So now we're faced with the biggest Christian dilemma. WHY or WHERE did this evil originate?

Some might think with God...as the reformed do. They say that God created EVERYTHING,,,even evil and that WE, the rest of Christianity, are not able to accept this.

I don't believe this can be true due to the nature of God.
IF God created evil, then I'd be inclined to leave Christianity immediately.

So, you see, God certainly didn't create evil...and a different god could not have created it --- ?? I mean, could it be that there are two forces from the very beginning?? I know that the bible does not teach this...but can we be sure? This is known as dualism and is heretical.

Here we are...left with no answer!
Except that we are to trust our God and believe in HIM only.

So then, for the sake of argument, let's say Lucifer was the first autonomous being created. He was(and all after him) created with a void inside (capacity to sin). The being could choose to fill that void with either God or himself. Lucifer chose to fill the void with himself and became evil. Is the void evil or what the being chooses to do with it evil? Am I asking the right question?