Purgatory

[cyberjosh]

I don't think so. Purgation is a place of JOYFUL suffering because we will SEE the goal of our sufferings, God Himself. Paradise/Abraham's Bosom appears to be more of a concept of heaven - although they are ambiguous.

Perhaps. If you consider Hades and Sheol to be the same place. We believe that Christ descended into Hades to take the righteous OT saints with Him to heaven. Perhaps it has been repopulated after this descent by those who require purgation. I can't say for sure.

IF it is associated with Hades, I would assume it was created at least by the time Abel died, since he was the first human to die. Since Christ hadn't died for the sin of Adam yet, Abel would have went "SOMEWHERE", but not the suffering of Hell.

Well first of all the reason I asked this is because if it is associated with one of these places which we already know of explicitly in Scripture then there is no need to define it as yet another place or realm, when it could be identified with Sheol or such. And for the record Abraham's Bosom/Paradise was part of Sheol, and was infact a joyful place (presummably anyways - as contrasted to the Gehenna - the real hell - side of Sheol). If we can identify it with an explicitly mentioned place already presented in Scripture we would no longer have to guess and speculate about the detials of Purgatory, because that is indeed what alot of what the idea/doctrine of purgatory entails IMO: speculation because it is not explicitly mentioned.

Actually if Purgatory is just another name for one of these places we already know then it would help tremendously in analyzing it because we can also bring in verses from the OT about what happens to people after they die.

Time moves differently outside of our plane of existence. Even the Scriptures admit that.

But that doesn't answer my question. Even Revelations gives a time table for the creation of the New Heavens and Earth. Surely if purgatory exists it would be destroyed at some point, like when the destuction of the current Earth and Heavens happens.

I am not familiar with Tatarus.

Its a Greek word used only once in the NT (in 1 Peter I think) translated (not entirely correctly) hell, but rather it more likely refers to the chasm fixed around Sheol, which Jesus mentioned in his parable about Lazarus. Tatarus is an abyss, or middle ground. So if that is what Purgatory is, a middle ground, then how do you know that Purgatory isn't Tartaros?

-------------------

P.S. I GTG I'll reply to the rest later.

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

I'm not really sure what the Catholic teaching on purgatory is but there is an outer darkness that is reserved for the sons of the kingdom Mt. 8:12 and a son of the kingdom would be a believer and perhaps a teacher who teaches the kingdom. There it is said, 'men will weep and gnash their teeth'. So being ignorant, many believers who would normally perish for lack of knowledge, are cast out into an outer darkness but it may be for a time. As far as I know they are not destroyed or thrown into the lake of fire so I would be happy to go along with the idea of purgatory.

 

[Guest]

I have a couple of more questions - in an effort to understand (mind you not believe) this concept of purgatory:

1) Who goes to purgatory?

2) How long does one stay there?

3) How does one get out of it?

4) Can you skip purgatory?

5) How do people on earth know if a deceased person went there?

For the sake of this discussion, I would appreciate it if a Catholic believer in purgatory would answer the questions and provide Biblical support for their answers - surely there is some answer in Scripture to those questions - and I will even say that your answers can come from the Apocrypha.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vic C.]

I'm not really sure what the Catholic teaching on purgatory is but there is an outer darkness that is reserved for the sons of the kingdom Mt. 8:12 and a son of the kingdom would be a believer and perhaps a teacher who teaches the kingdom. There it is said, 'men will weep and gnash their teeth'. So being ignorant, many believers who would normally perish for lack of knowledge, are cast out into an outer darkness but it may be for a time. As far as I know they are not destroyed or thrown into the lake of fire so I would be happy to go along with the idea of purgatory.

Hi Mark,

For the RCC, purgatory is for the redeemed who still need a little "attitude adjustment". 8-) The outer darkness Jesus referred to is a place for the wicked, unredeemed souls. He uses a wedding feast as an analogy because most weddings took place at night.

From Clarke's Commentaries - http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkemat8.htm (scrool down to verse 12 for the context of this quote)

Verse 12. {...Shall be cast out into outer darkness] As the enjoyment of that salvation which Jesus Christ calls the kingdom of heaven is here represented under the notion of a nuptial festival, at which the guests sat down in a reclining posture, with the master of the feast; so the state of those who were excluded from the banquet is represented as deep darkness; because the nuptial solemnities took place at night.

Hence, at those suppers, the house of reception was filled with lights called dadev, lampadev, lukneia, fanoi, torches, lamps, candles, and lanthorns, by Athenaeus and Plutarch: so they who were admitted to the banquet had the benefit of the light; but they who were shut out were in darkness, called here outer darkness, i.e. the darkness on the outside of the house in which the guests were; which must appear more abundantly gloomy, when compared with the profusion of light within the guest-chamber. And because they who were shut out were not only exposed to shame, but also to hunger and cold; therefore it is added, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

As these feasts are often alluded to by the evangelists, I would observe, once for all:-that they who were invited to them entered by a gate designed to receive them; whence Christ, by whom we enter into the marriage feast, compares himself to a gate, John x. 1, 2, 7, 9. This gate, at the time the guests were to come, was made narrow, the wicket only being left open, and the porter standing there, that they who were not bidden to the marriage might not rush into it.

Hence Christ exhorts the Jews to enter in at the strait gate, chap. vii. 13, &c. When all that were invited were once come, the door was presently shut, and was not to be opened to any who came too late, and stood knocking without; so after the wise virgins had entered with the bridegroom, the gate was shut, and was not opened to the foolish virgins, who stood knocking without, chap. xxv. 11. And in this sense we are to understand the words of Christ, Luke xiii. 24, 25.

 

[Solo]

Very Good explanation Vic. I always enjoy reading your last days posts. Of course, this is from a pre-wrather!! :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Very Good explanation Vic. I always enjoy reading your last days posts. Of course, this is from a pre-wrather!! :-D

Thanks Michael, one caveat though; Adam Clarke was a Preterist, LOL! I still like his commentaries. Historical and cultural context play a large part in his commentary writings.

I am both historical and Prewrath...

*wonders if that is even possible- lol *

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
I was at fuller seminaries library going through some history books and came across another very good piece...Truly this man of God did some wonderful things for the Lord....

Imagine, Folks...Joe said that Luther is roasting in Hell :o


LUTHER’S ATTACK UPON PAPAL AUTHORITY

Luther had no idea where his spiritual discovery was leading him. It took a flagrant abuse of church finances to propel him into the center of religious rebellion in Germany, and into another revolutionary position regarding papal authority.

The sale of indulgences, introduced during the Crusades, remained a favored source of papal income. In exchange for a meritorious workâ€â€frequently, a contribution to a worthy cause or a pilgrimage to a shrineâ€â€the church offered the sinner exemption from his acts of penance by drawing upon its “treasury of merits.†This consisted of the grace accumulated by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and the meritorious deeds of the saints.

All too often, zealous preachers of indulgences made them appear to be a sort of magicâ€â€as though a good deed, especially a contribution, automatically got its reward, regardless of the condition of the doer’s soul. Sorrow for sin was completely and conveniently overlooked. That troubled Luther deeply. [praise God]


Armed with his newfound understanding of faith, [via the Holy Spirit] Luther began to criticize the theology of indulgences in his sermons. His displeasure increased noticeably during 1517, when the Dominican John Tetzel was preaching throughout much of Germany on behalf of a papal fund–raising campaign to complete the construction of St. Peter s basilica in Rome. In exchange for a contribution, Tetzel boasted, he would provide donors with an indulgence that would even apply beyond the grave and free souls from purgatory. “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings,†went his jingle, “the soul from purgatory springs.â€Â[not much has changed today]


To Luther, Tetzel’s preaching was bad theology if not worse. He promptly drew up 95 propositions (or theses) for theological debate and on 31 October 1517, following university custom, he posted them on the Castle Church door at Wittenberg. Among other things, they argued that indulgences cannot remove guilt, do not apply to purgatory, and are harmful because they induce a false sense of security in the donor. That was the spark that ignited the Reformation.

Within a short time the German Dominicans denounced Luther to Rome as a man guilty of preaching “dangerous doctrines.†[lol] A Vatican theologian issued a series of countertheses, arguing that anyone who criticized indulgences was guilty of heresy.[ wHo is the heretic ? ][ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences ]

Initially willing to accept a final verdict from Rome, Luther began to insist on scriptural proof that he was wrongâ€â€and even questioned papal authority over purgatory. During an i8–day debate in 1519 with theologian John Eck at Leipzig, Luther blurted out: “A council may sometimes err. Neither the church nor the pope can establish articles of faith. These must come from Scripture.â€Â

Thus, Luther had moved from his first convictionâ€â€that salvation was by faith in Christ alone to a second: that the Scriptures, not popes or councils, are the standard for Christian faith and behavior. [The CC still does not get it ]


John Eck did not miss Luther’s likeness to John Hus. After the Leipzig debate he moved to have Rome declare Luther a heretic. Luther in turn decided to put his case before the German people by publishing a series of pamphlets. In his Address to the Nobility of the German Nation, the Reformer called on the princes to correct abuses within the church, to strip bishops and abbots of their wealth and worldly power, and to create, in effect, a national German Church.

In his The Babylonian Captivity of the Church Luther made clear how justification by faith reshaped his doctrine of the church. He argued that Rome’s sacramental system held Christians “captive.†He attacked the papacy for depriving the individual Christian of his freedom to approach God directly by faith, without the mediation of priests, and he set forth his own views of the sacraments. [ some things don't change :o ]To be valid, he said, a sacrament had to be instituted by Christ and be exclusively Christian. By these tests Luther could find no justification for five of the Roman Catholic sacraments. He retained only Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and he placed even these within a community of believing Christians, rather than in the hands of an exclusive priesthood. [amen]

Thus, Luther brushed aside the traditional view of the church as a sacred hierarchy headed by the pope and returned to the early Christian view of a community of Christian believers in which all believers are priests called to offer spiritual sacrifices to God.

In his third pamphlet published in 1520, The Freedom of a Christian Man, Luther set forth in conciliatory but firm tones his views on Christian behavior and salvation. This is probably the best introduction available to his central ideas. He did not discourage good works but argued that the inner spiritual freedom that comes from the certainty found in faith leads to the performance of good worksâ€â€by all true Christians. “Good works do not make a man good,†he said, “but a good man does good works.â€Â[amen]

Thus, on the threshold of his excommunication from the Roman Church, Luther removed the necessity of monasticism by stressing that the essence of Christian living lies in serving God in one’s calling whether secular or ecclesiastical. All useful callings, he said, are equally sacred in God’s eyes.

Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.)
Scanned from fuller theological seminary

[anything in brackets, I added]

 

[cyberjosh]

Adam Clarke was a Preterist

Taking a short tangent here, what is a Preterist? I've heard the term before and infact there is an entire forum site called the "Preterist Forums" where people who subscribe to that group can talk. But what does it mean?

Thanks.

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

Taking a short tangent here, what is a Preterist? I've heard the term before and infact there is an entire forum site called the "Preterist Forums" where people who subscribe to that group can talk. But what does it mean?

Thanks.

~Josh

Basically it is a view that such false teachers like Hank Hanagreff hold to that Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD (historical view) Others feel that prophecy is two fold, that it was fulfilled in the first century and will again occur in the ''last days'' when ever that is....Personally, I disagree with that view as the Next time Jesus Christ comes it will be for his church and no, not Rome...But his true church....As for me, I am a pre trib kinda of guy and Michael and Vic are pre wrath which really does make sense...I could live with it, but am not quite there yet....I am sure some one will be by to rebuke me for saying something wrong, but so be it.... :

 

[jgredline]

To get the thread back on topic....

The Jesus of ''Romanism'' is one who is sacrificed again and again for the remission of the sins both of the living and the dead; for those alive, and for those in purgatory.

Is this the Christ of Christianity?

 

[francisdesales]

I have a couple of more questions - in an effort to understand (mind you not believe) this concept of purgatory:

1) Who goes to purgatory?

I will try to answer without writing a chapter. If you want more detail, I can try to expound more.

Who goes to Purgatory? Everyone who does not have a pure heart, who is not holy. I think very few people would go directly to heaven - perhaps martyrs who have given it all for Christ. The Scriptures tell us that no one will see God who is not holy or pure of heart. There are various Scriptures that support this. I will give you one.

I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts. And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed. Isaiah 6:5-7

This is what happens when man experiences God directly. An immediate recognition of our own unholiness occurs, along with a corresponding feeling of inadequacy. This is called humility. As Isaiah did, we must ALL undergo a self-conscious and voluntary purging upon approaching God more closely than in this present life.

Purgatory is the means in the next life where we become holy. Where we crucify the things that stand between God and ourselves. Those vices or attitudes that are not totally in line with God's Will.

2) How long does one stay there? 3) How does one get out of it?

We don't know how time moves in the afterlife, so no one could venture to guess. Time assignments for indulgences of the past were based on equivalent penance done here on earth. But it was just to give a concrete number or value to a suffering or penance offered to God when comparing other services given to God. One "gets out" by becoming pure of heart. Completely.

4) Can you skip purgatory?

A perfect person or one who has suffered enormously certainly can be said to have suffered and been transformed sufficiently here in this life. I would say few people fit into that category.

5) How do people on earth know if a deceased person went there?

We don't. We rely on the mercy of God that He allows a person into Purgatory rather than condemns one to hell.

I can give many other Scriptures that point to Purgatory at a later time, if you are still interested.

 

[jgredline]

you calling catholicism romanism is the same as me calling your 55000 isms as SELFISM,

please do some homework, read. please dont continue to spread lies

What did I lie about?....
The lie here is the doctrine of purgatory.....
To give people false hope that they will be cleaned up and prepared for God is a lie and it comes from the father of lies...The devil....

 

[francisdesales]

What did I lie about?....
The lie here is the doctrine of purgatory.....
To give people false hope that they will be cleaned up and prepared for God is a lie and it comes from the father of lies...The devil....

Javier,

You have offered no evidence that Purgatory is a false teaching. Rather, you attack the Church on things that have little to do with the subject at hand. I guess the method is to try to smear the Church, which, by association, would apparently make her teachings moot.

Is that how people at your church search for the truth?

Regards

 

[Solo]

Javier,

You have offered no evidence that Purgatory is a false teaching. Rather, you attack the Church on things that have little to do with the subject at hand. I guess the method is to try to smear the Church, which, by association, would apparently make her teachings moot.

Is that how people at your church search for the truth?

Regards

When did purgatory begin being taught in the roman catholic cult?

 

[Solo]

Purgatory and 1 Cor. 3:15

The doctrine of Purgatory in the Catholic church is explained in this statement from the Second Vatican Council, p. 63, which says,

• The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.

The Protestant church has objected to the doctrine of Purgatory by stating that this teaching denies the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice. To say that our sins are expiated by our suffering is an insult to the cross of Christ since it says that the cross was not sufficient to cleanse us of our sins. It says that we must suffer, that we must do something to have our sins fully cleansed. Instead, the Protestants maintain that Jesus sacrifice alone is what justifies and removes from us all guilt. We look to the cross and to the cross alone for the complete forgiveness of our sins and, though our works will one day be judged, we have passed out of condemnation (Romans 8:1). Our works reflect on rewards in heaven, not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins (1 Peter 2:24). There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30). In Greek the term "it is finished" is "tetelestai." It was a term used in legal contexts to state that a debt had been paid in full. "Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning "paid in full." (Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc., 1983, 1985). Therefore, there is no need for purgatory.
Nevertheless, because the Protestants appeal so much to the Bible, the Catholics have sought to find the doctrine of Purgatory within its pages. One such verse is 1 Corinthians 3:15.

• "If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

As with any verse in the Bible, to fully understand it, we must look at it in its biblical context. Following is 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

• According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each mans work. 14 If any mans work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
  The context speaks of Paul having planted the Corinthian church and that another person was building upon that work: Verse 6 says, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth." Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Peter 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.

Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of mens hearts; and then each mans praise will come to him from God."

Note also, 1 Peter 1:6-7, "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

2 Peter 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

Purgatory is a dangerous doctrine that makes the Cross of Christ insufficient by requiring the person to undergo suffering in order to be made worthy of being with God. This is a false teaching and is to be avoided. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), not by faith and works (Romans 3:28).

Retrieved from http://www.carm.org/catholic/1_Cor_3-15.htm

 

[jgredline]

Joe
The burden of proof is on you...to prove this ''false'' doctrine of purgatory to be true...While my Knowledge of the Catholic religion is average or even below ave, and I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I do know my bible.....I know enough to know that there is no such mention of purgatory any place in the 66 books of the bible...The Catholics will have to twist and squirm scriptures to try and make them mean something they are not....

Purgatory was a doctrine made up to collect money for the catholic church....A fact that is common knowledge....and that is really what it is...Like it or not, that is what it boils down to...

Purgatory takes away from The cross....Luther who you say is in Hell, understood justification as was revealed to him by the Holy Spirit....

He stood toe to toe with the ''DEVIL'' and as a result we had the reformation...

Lets talk about sin for a minute...

Roman Catholic teaching that sins can be put into the two categories... “venial†and “mortal.†In Roman Catholic teaching, a venial sin can be forgiven, but often after punishments in this life or in Purgatory after death, but before entrance into heaven....... According to your catholic false teachings, A mortal sin is a sin that causes spiritual death and cannot be forgiven; it excludes people from the kingdom of God...Ridiculous theology

The scriptures teach that ''all'' sins are “mortal†in that even the smallest sin makes us legally guilty before God and worthy of eternal torment....

Yet even the most serious of sins are forgiven when one comes to Jesus for salvation

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Paul classified ''all'' sins together and if you know as much church history as you claim to know then, you will know that the corinthian church was the most corrupt church of the day....

So if we wanted to use catholic terminology, then all sin is veniel or mortal, but not both...Really they are all mortal, unless Jesus Christ is your Lord and saviour...In other words we are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and when the father sees ''us'' he sees Jesus righteousness....

Hi Folks
I was at fuller seminaries library going through some history books and came across another very good piece...Truly this man of God did some wonderful things for the Lord....

Imagine, Folks...Joe said that Luther is roasting in Hell :o


LUTHER’S ATTACK UPON PAPAL AUTHORITY

Luther had no idea where his spiritual discovery was leading him. It took a flagrant abuse of church finances to propel him into the center of religious rebellion in Germany, and into another revolutionary position regarding papal authority.

The sale of indulgences, introduced during the Crusades, remained a favored source of papal income. In exchange for a meritorious workâ€â€frequently, a contribution to a worthy cause or a pilgrimage to a shrineâ€â€the church offered the sinner exemption from his acts of penance by drawing upon its “treasury of merits.†This consisted of the grace accumulated by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and the meritorious deeds of the saints.

All too often, zealous preachers of indulgences made them appear to be a sort of magicâ€â€as though a good deed, especially a contribution, automatically got its reward, regardless of the condition of the doer’s soul. Sorrow for sin was completely and conveniently overlooked. That troubled Luther deeply. [praise God]


Armed with his newfound understanding of faith, [via the Holy Spirit] Luther began to criticize the theology of indulgences in his sermons. His displeasure increased noticeably during 1517, when the Dominican John Tetzel was preaching throughout much of Germany on behalf of a papal fund–raising campaign to complete the construction of St. Peter s basilica in Rome. In exchange for a contribution, Tetzel boasted, he would provide donors with an indulgence that would even apply beyond the grave and free souls from purgatory. “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings,†went his jingle, “the soul from purgatory springs.â€Â[not much has changed today]


To Luther, Tetzel’s preaching was bad theology if not worse. He promptly drew up 95 propositions (or theses) for theological debate and on 31 October 1517, following university custom, he posted them on the Castle Church door at Wittenberg. Among other things, they argued that indulgences cannot remove guilt, do not apply to purgatory, and are harmful because they induce a false sense of security in the donor. That was the spark that ignited the Reformation.

Within a short time the German Dominicans denounced Luther to Rome as a man guilty of preaching “dangerous doctrines.†[lol] A Vatican theologian issued a series of countertheses, arguing that anyone who criticized indulgences was guilty of heresy.[ wHo is the heretic ? ][ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences ]

Initially willing to accept a final verdict from Rome, Luther began to insist on scriptural proof that he was wrongâ€â€and even questioned papal authority over purgatory. During an i8–day debate in 1519 with theologian John Eck at Leipzig, Luther blurted out: “A council may sometimes err. Neither the church nor the pope can establish articles of faith. These must come from Scripture.â€Â

Thus, Luther had moved from his first convictionâ€â€that salvation was by faith in Christ alone to a second: that the Scriptures, not popes or councils, are the standard for Christian faith and behavior. [The CC still does not get it ]


John Eck did not miss Luther’s likeness to John Hus. After the Leipzig debate he moved to have Rome declare Luther a heretic. Luther in turn decided to put his case before the German people by publishing a series of pamphlets. In his Address to the Nobility of the German Nation, the Reformer called on the princes to correct abuses within the church, to strip bishops and abbots of their wealth and worldly power, and to create, in effect, a national German Church.

In his The Babylonian Captivity of the Church Luther made clear how justification by faith reshaped his doctrine of the church. He argued that Rome’s sacramental system held Christians “captive.†He attacked the papacy for depriving the individual Christian of his freedom to approach God directly by faith, without the mediation of priests, and he set forth his own views of the sacraments. [ some things don't change :o ]To be valid, he said, a sacrament had to be instituted by Christ and be exclusively Christian. By these tests Luther could find no justification for five of the Roman Catholic sacraments. He retained only Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and he placed even these within a community of believing Christians, rather than in the hands of an exclusive priesthood. [amen]

Thus, Luther brushed aside the traditional view of the church as a sacred hierarchy headed by the pope and returned to the early Christian view of a community of Christian believers in which all believers are priests called to offer spiritual sacrifices to God.

In his third pamphlet published in 1520, The Freedom of a Christian Man, Luther set forth in conciliatory but firm tones his views on Christian behavior and salvation. This is probably the best introduction available to his central ideas. He did not discourage good works but argued that the inner spiritual freedom that comes from the certainty found in faith leads to the performance of good worksâ€â€by all true Christians. “Good works do not make a man good,†he said, “but a good man does good works.â€Â[amen]

Thus, on the threshold of his excommunication from the Roman Church, Luther removed the necessity of monasticism by stressing that the essence of Christian living lies in serving God in one’s calling whether secular or ecclesiastical. All useful callings, he said, are equally sacred in God’s eyes.

Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.)
Scanned from fuller theological seminary

[anything in brackets, I added]

 

[jgredline]

Folks....No place in all of scripture is there ever a mention of a saint praying for a dead person....No place not a one....Not even David prayed for his dead son, but instead he knew he would see him again in heaven...Note, also that Davids son was not baptized, yet David knew he would see him again...

Secondly, we do have an example of SAUL go to a ''Witch'' / medium / demon to make intercession for him to bring up Samuel....

Folks...This is the example that scripture gives us...and warns us NOT to do....

It really goes to show who the catholic church follows....and it is not the example of David.....

And Folks, Another thing....The scriptures also teach that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment....It does NOT SAY ''it is appointed unto man then purgatory then the judgment...Heb 9:27 look it up.....


Folks, here is another thing.....Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Folks...Where do I start...Verse 10 tells us that we are sactified through Jesus Christ...Set apart for him....

verse 11 makes it clear that there is NOTHING ELSE INCLUDING THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY can take away our sins.....

verse 12 Goes back to Jesus and the scripture is clear His sacrifice was once and it was forever....Not lets goo to purgatory and finish what Christ could not....More catholic heresy....

Verse 13 goes on to say that his enemies will be made his footstool.... Folks, Jesus enemy is the catholic church...Why? Because they are taking away his Glory and saying that what he did was not enough...

iN VERSE 14 THE WRITER goes on to affirm ''by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.''

Folks...I may not be a catholic scholar, but the Holy Spirit will teach and reveal the truth so that I may pass it on....I also encourage you to ...Study the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit....to reveal truth....

Luther was right in what he did, Praise God....

I am just getting started.....

 

[Solo]

What about Purgatory? [Part 1 of 2]

The word "purgatory" is defined in the Webster's Dictionary of Modern English as, "a place or state of torment". What is meant by the Catholic Church when the word "Purgatory" is used? How does Rome's teaching of this doctrine effect Biblical understanding? With these questions before us let us consider, What Saith Rome?

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification..." (Catechism p.268, para #1030, 1031).

It is generally accepted that there are few Catholics who will not have to spend some measure of time in this place called "Purgatory". Purgatory is basically an intermediate state where an individual must be "purified" from sins which were not dealt with while sojourning on earth. This is not to be understood as a place of pleasure. The Baltimore Catechism on page 85, question #173 describes this abode as a place of "suffering". Purgatory is believed to be a temporary place. That is, those who enter it will eventually make it to heaven but they must first suffer for their sins. In Roman Catholic theology, most people will make it to heaven eventually. Most people will thus be "saved", according to Catholic teaching.

The Catechism describes those in Purgatory as being "...imperfectly purified...". They are also described as failing "... to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

You see, the teachings of Purgatory all stem from the Catholic Church's belief in a works salvation. Basically Purgatory teaches that you must pay for your own sins. Not all of them, only those which Christ failed to pay for. In great contrast the Bible speaks of those who are truly saved in this manner, "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). Here, the Word of God tells us that through the sacrifice of Christ believers are " perfected forever". If you fail to accept God's way of salvation and go the way of the Roman Church you will certainly at the time of your death still be found, "...imperfectly purified..." as well as failing "... to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." A truly "saved" person is said to be "perfected forever", not requiring in any way a "Purgatory".

In a Catholic article discussing why it is Fundamentalists do not accept the teaching of Purgatory it is said, "The main reason for such strong opposition to purgatory is that it can't coexist with Fundamentalism's notion of salvation. For Fundamentalists, salvation comes by "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior." Aside from that one act of acceptance, no acts--meaning no good deeds and no sins--make any difference with respect to one's salvation."

(Catholic Answers, Purgatory, http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/purgatory.htm )

I could not have said that better myself. Purgatory is rejected because it is true that "... no good deeds... make any difference with respect to one's salvation." The Bible sets forth salvation as a "gift". ("For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9) In light of Biblical teaching, Purgatory is similar to making children submit to a whipping before allowing them to open their Christmas presents. Salvation is a free gift, true believers have no need of a Purgatory.

Consider again the sad state in which Catholics are said to be in at the time of their death: "...imperfectly purified..." as well as failing "... to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." I do not believe that the doctrine of Purgatory is in any way a teaching from God. However, I do believe that the Bible teaches that unsaved people will be in torment from the time they die to the time they face the White Throne Judgment, from which they will be cast into Hell for eternity. [Turn to Revelation 20:11-15.] This is the scene in which Jesus Christ will judge the unsaved, the Final Judgment Day, where people who haveô@ not accepted Jesus Christ on the only terms He would allow, are judged on the only other basis possible, their own works, thoughts, and motives.

Notice verse 13, from whence these doomed people come to be judged. "... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

This is the temporary place in which the spirits of those unsaved have been residing from the moment they died to the time when Jesus Christ calls them forth to be judged. This place is a place of torment, but it is temporary in the sense that these people will come forth, so they can be permanently judged, and then cast into eternal Hell. During this time of "temporary" punishment, people who believed the Roman Catholic lie about Purgatory, will be thinking that Purgatory does exist and that they are in it. Through their supernatural torments, they will comfort themselves with the thought that this torment is just temporary, and soon I will come out of it, see light, and go to Heaven. Jesus Christ tells of these type of people, as they have come out of this temporary Hell, and are in the light awaiting their final judgment. It is obvious that these people expect to be going to Heaven after their encounter with Christ at the Judgment Seat.

"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

The Lord Jesus pinpoints exactly when this sad occurrence will happen. Jesus says, "Many will say unto me in that day..." The "day" being referred to here is the day of Judgment. After the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom we are told there will be a Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:12-15). It is at this time that all the unsaved dead will stand before the Lord Jesus facing official judgment for their sins. You see, before this time no unsaved man has stood before the presence of God. They have, however, been suffering in hell, some for thousands of years.

It is fascinating to consider the responses voiced by those in Matthew chapter seven. They speak to the Lord Jesus of "prophesying in His name" of doing "many wonderful works". These are interesting words coming from individuals who quite possibly have been suffering in torment for thousands of years. It is almost like they where expecting to be released from their eternal condemnation.

I believe that in this very scripture we are observing the same responses that will be voiced by those who have been deceived into thinking that they are in a temporary "Purgatory". In light of this it is quite possible that there are Catholic people in hell today who mistakenly believe they are in Purgatory expecting to be released.

Jesus Himself has told us their is not Purgatory!! As Jesus hung on the cross, one of the condemned thieves turned to Him for Salvation. Even though he did not enunciate all the portions of the Salvation Plan, Jesus knew his heart was broken for sin, and knew that the thief recognized Him as the only Savior of the world. Listen to this conversation, in Luke 23:39-43. We will only quote here the last statements, in verses 42-43.

"And he [the thief] said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Where did Jesus say this thief would wake up, that very day that he died? In Paradise!! Not Purgatory, but Paradise. If ever there was a person who needed to "purify" his sins, it was this thief, who had no recorded remorse over his sins before this day. In Roman culture, a man was crucified for thievery only after a lifetime of thievery, when he was considered by the court as an habitual criminal that could never be reformed. Certainly, if Purgatory really existed, for the express purpose of "purifying" a person's sin, this man would have needed it. But, Jesus Himself said that this thief would be going immediately to Paradise.

In Part Two, we will be examining another instance in which Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that we who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice in the way in which He stipulated, do not need any further purification for sins.

Friend, there is no Purgatory. If you die and it can be said of you that you are "...imperfectly purified..." as well as failing "... to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." I am sorry to say that you are eternally lost.

It is a heart breaking thought to consider that there could be people in hell today who believe they are in Purgatory unaware that it is too late for them. The people in Matthew chapter seven knew of Jesus. They are recorded as saying, "Lord, Lord...". However, notice very carefully Jesus' sad response to them: "I never knew you: depart from me..." Friend, you may claim to know Jesus, but does Jesus know you?

If you have never accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, but have come to realize His reality and want to accept His FREE Gift of Eternal Life, you can also do so now, in the privacy of your home. Once you accept Him as Savior, you are spiritually Born Again, and are as assured of Heaven as if you were already there. Then, you can rest assured that nothing will not hurt you spiritually. You will also know the greatest heart peace that the greatest God can give to one of His own children.

If you would like to become Born Again, and come to know this wonderful heart peace, turn to our Salvation Page now.

Retrieved from http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc111.htm

 

[Vic C.]

Taking a short tangent here, what is a Preterist? I've heard the term before and infact there is an entire forum site called the "Preterist Forums" where people who subscribe to that group can talk. But what does it mean?

Thanks.

~Josh

Josh,

this is a good question and the best place to ask would be in the End Times Forum. This way, those who are versed in historicism, partial preterism and full preterism can elaborate... not that Javier did a bad job. In a nutshell, he described the preterist and historicist views.

http://www.historicist.com/ is a good site explaining the Reformers view before Darby made futurism popular. The section on Newton is interesting, to say the least. I tend to mix this view with the "classic" PreWrath position. Meaning, I view some prophecy as already passed, some two-fold and some yet to come.

Eschatology is "tricky". No one is 100% certain; or correct. Some may think they are though. ;-)

:end

 

[Solo]

IS THERE A PURGATORY? PART 2 OF 2

We examine the false teaching of Purgatory from two different aspects, from Jesus' statement on the cross, and from various Scripture.Subtitle:


When Jesus Christ hung on the cross, preparing to command His Spirit to leave his mortal body, thus officially establishing His Covenant, He uttered a statement that should refute, once and for all, the Roman Catholic teaching that Purgatory exists. In our article, "What About Purgatory? Part 1, RC111, we examined the reason Catholic theologians insist that a place like Purgatory must exist. Let us examine this reason as the beginning point for this discussion.

" "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification..." (Catechism p.268, para #1030, 1031).

Thus, we see that Roman Catholicism teaches that Jesus' death on the cross assured people of their ultimate, eternal salvation, but it did not perfectly purify their souls so they could immediately go into Heaven. In other words, people still have a burden of sin debt that had to be purified through the fires of punishment in Purgatory. Roman Catholic adherents must have to continue to WORK for their holiness!

Yet, Jesus told us, in no uncertain terms, that this teaching is as false as a $3 bill. Where and when did Jesus tell us that His blood sacrifice paid the full debt incurred from our sin(s)? He told this on the cross, just moments before He commanded His Spirit to leave! In fact, these words were the last recorded words of Jesus before His body died. Since secular law places very heavy emphasis on the Last Word and Testament of a person, we should place very heavy emphasis on Jesus' last Words. Listen to Him tell us that His blood sacrifice paid the FULL DEBT of sin.

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." [John 19:30] Jesus stated, "It is finished", just before He commanded His Spirit to leave His mortal body. This sentence, "It is finished", when we understand it fully, should convince you that Purgatory cannot exist, because this full meaning shows that Jesus' sacrifice paid the entire sin debt!!

When Jesus used the word, " finished", He used a Greek word for finished that is a commercial term that means the "debt is totally paid"!! It is Strong's Concordance word #5055. teleo, tel-eh'-o; from G5056; meaning "to end", i.e. "complete, execute, conclude, discharge a debt:--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform." [Strong's Concordance, reported in Holman Bible Dictionary].

When a person in the old Roman Empire paid a debt totally, this word ( Tetelestai) was stamped on his statement, telling everyone that this debt had been totally paid! So, when Jesus said "It is finished", He used the commercial word that told everyone, for all time, that He had totally paid the sin debt! This word, " Tetelestai", is indelibly stamped on the account of everyone who accepts the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and becomes born again. Since there is no such thing as a "residue of sin" that needs to be purified, there is absolutely no reason for Purgatory to exist! Jesus' sacrifice paid the sin debt in FULL!

We see this Truth in other places in Scripture.

1) " For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) Notice the word, "perfected" in this Scripture. Jesus' sacrifice was an offering to God that "perfects" the people who accept His sacrifice. This verse alone should convince you that the Roman Catholic teaching, that sin cannot be atoned for except by the "purging fires" of Purgatory, is totally false and without foundation. Once you realize the lie of the sin atonement that cannot be atoned by Jesus' sacrifice, you also will realize the lie of penance and indulgences!

2) "Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity ... He retains not His anger forever, because He delights in mercy and loving-kindness ... You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea" [Micah 7:18-19; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary]

Notice that God promises to cast all our sins into the depths of the sea, where they will never again ever be seen. He does not cast them into shallow waters near the sea shore where they might wash up again, but into the depths of the sea, where they will never again be seen!

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. "[Psalms 103:12] This is another precious promise that God will remove all our sin from us, forever. Notice, also, that once a person meets God's condition for forgiveness of sin, God will be as tender toward that person as a human father is tender toward his children. In Roman Catholicism, God is presented as an angry, avenging Deity, from whom all humans must cower, which is why we are supposed to need the intercession of the Virgin Mary! Jesus Christ is also presented as that avenging, Deity.

3) "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." [Isaiah 1:18] How much more wonderful of a promise can we get? When we meet God's conditions for forgiveness of sins [which is now through Jesus Christ], our sin stains will be washed as clean as white wool. Do you see any "residue" of sin that needs the purging of Purgatory fires? I do not, and God does not.

4) "Behold, it was for my peace that I had intense bitterness; but you have loved back my life from the pit of corruption and nothingness, for you have cast all my sins behind Your back." [Isaiah 38:17] How precious this promises truly is, to my heart! When our sins are forgiven through the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God then casts all my sins behind His back. What a precious truth that, once God forgives sin through Jesus Christ, He then chooses to forget that we ever sinned! This deliberate forgetfulness of God is called, "Justification", because it "Justifies us before God", putting us in right standing before God. It also means that, once God Justifies us, it is "Just as though we had never sinned".

Do you see any sin punishment here that cannot be atoned by any other means than the Purgatory fires? I do not, and you should not, for there is no such place as Purgatory and no such thing as sin punishment that cannot be atoned by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. There is no "residue" of sin left over from the act of forgiveness that requires us to do penance in this life and Purgatory in the next life.

In the next article, we shall examine the Roman Catholic basis for teaching this false doctrine and then we shall study to see where this doctrine originated, if we cannot find it in Scripture. Friends, we urge you to carefully consider all our evidence that Roman Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity that does not merit you giving your precious eternal soul for it.

May God Richly Bless You.

If you have never accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, but have come to realize His reality and want to accept His FREE Gift of Eternal Life, you can also do so now, in the privacy of your home. Once you accept Him as Savior, you are spiritually Born Again, and are as assured of Heaven as if you were already there. Then, you can rest assured that nothing will not hurt you spiritually. You will also know the greatest heart peace that the greatest God can give to one of His own children.

If you would like to become Born Again, and come to know this wonderful heart peace, turn to our Salvation Page now.

Retrieved from http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc111a.htm