The 144,000 & the twelve tribes of Israel

[Diolectic]

The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the dead He is put first. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Col 1:15, 18. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ 1Chr 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

Priests never inherited any land; Jos 14:3. For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them. The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood 1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:


This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them. 2Corinth 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 4:30 and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This is how the Tribes are placed in Revelation 7:5-8
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no tribe of Joseph. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, then God will move His attention to Israel once again then Israel will be completed and saved. Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 11:15-32 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? :16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:25-28 relate to Daniel 9:24

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

 

[Bick]

The 144,000 and the 12 tribes of Israel

Hi Dioletic. In my opinion, I believe the 144,000 will be literally 12,000 men from each of the 12 tribes listed, just as it says.

As for the tribes listed, Dan and Ephraim are omitted, Levi and Joseph taking their places.

For the reason see, Lev. 24:10-16; Deut. 29:18-21; Judg. 18:2-31; 1 Kings 12:26-33 and Hos.4:17.

It was because idolatry was introduced into Israel by the tribes of Dan and Ephraim. And, for this, their names were blotted out of the book (of blessings, I assume). Thus, they will have no one from their tribes as special servants, sealed to not be harmed by the plagues, and later, to follow the Lamb (Christ Jesus) where ever He goes, in the Messianic Kingdom.

Bick

 

[Bick]

The 144,000

Hi again, Dioletic.

Further comments: the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation.

Revelation is concerned with Israel and the nations.

If you want a tremendous commentary, go to this web site:

http://philologos.org/__eb-ta/default.htm .

It is by Dr. E.W. Bullinger, entitled: THE APOCALYPSE.
He sets it out logically and scripturally, so each one can make up his own mind.

You can down load it and study it at your leisure.

Bick

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

Hi again, Dioletic.

Further comments: the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation.

Revelation is concerned with Israel and the nations.

If you want a tremendous commentary, go to this web site:

http://philologos.org/__eb-ta/default.htm.

It is by Dr. E.W. Bullinger, entitled: THE APOCALYPSE.
He sets it out logically and scripturally, so each one can make up his own mind.

You can down load it and study it at your leisure.

Bick

Please do not make claims like that with out backing up with scripture.
How am I suposed to be persuaded by just what you say.
I've read comenteries, I want conversation.

If the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation, what is this suposed to mean?
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

Diolectic,

nice to see you're into eschatology. Hope we don't butt heads too much. 8-)

Question;

The 144,000 are mentioned twice in Rev. Do you believe they are the same 144,000?

 

[Bick]

Re: The 144,000

Please do not make claims like that with out backing up with scripture.
How am I suposed to be persuaded by just what you say.
I've read comenteries, I want conversation.

If the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation, what is this suposed to mean?
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Answers: First of all, IMO, the Church/body of Christ was not the subject of OT prophecy. Passages may be found there and used to illustrate what is subsequently revealed. But this is done only by way of application, and not by way of teaching or interpretation.

Paul in Rom. 12:5, tells us "..so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another." RSV. And, there are a number of verses in Paul's epistles declaring believers to be in the body of Christ.

This mystery, of our being the body of Christ, and Christ in us, has been "hidden for ages and generations, but now made manifest to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of the mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col. 1:26-27, RSV.

This, and other mysteries concerning the body of Christ are set forth primarily in Ephesians and Colossians.

Especially Ephesians. For in it we are told that God "blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designation us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will.." Eph.1:3-6, CV.

While we certainly enjoy many blessings now, they nust be nothing, compared to what God is preparing.

The 'rapture' involves another mystery, for Paul reveals that not all in the body of Christ will die to be resurrected. But, some will be alive when the dead in Christ, the corruptible, put on Incorruption; then those alive will be changed, the mortal putting on Immortality; and both together meeting the Lord in the air, and taken to their celestial homes.

OK, I wanted to establish that the church/body's future is in the heavenlies, not on the earth. Even though, if God wills, some may travel to the earth.

Now, concerning the tribulation and the Day of the Lord. My studies indicate the tribulation period can be called the time of God's wrath, especially the last half. Certainly this is brought out in Revelation. See Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18, 16:19 and 19:15.

But, we read in three place that the church/body is saved from God's wrath:

Rom. 5:9 "Since we now have been justified in his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" NIV.

1 Thes.1:10 "..to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." NIV.

1 Thes. 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." NIV.

Therefore, since our (the church/body of Christ) destiny is in the heavenlies and we are rescued from the wrath to come, my conclusion is we are not part of the future Messianic kingdom on earth, or the tribulation.

NOW, let's look at Revelation---concerned with Israel and the nations.

An important point is the Hebrew character of the book, shown in it use of idioms, expressions, words and phrases, which cannot be called Greek, and in fact is called "bad Greek" by many.

This may seem minor, but just the references to the OT is a clue. Matthew, considered specially Jewish among the four Gospels has 92; Hebrews has 102 references, and Revelation has 285 !

So many Bible students start right at 1:1 to make Revelation start right when John wrote it, because in most versions it reads, "The revelation of Jesus Christ , which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place." RSV.
Here, you must take my word for it, or look it up in a complete concordance, such as Young's or Strong's:
The word translated "soon" is wrong! The Greek words used are "en tachei" which mean "with or in speed." What Christ is revealing is to take place
"with speed" or "quickly." From that same Greek root, many places in Revelation speak of things happening "quickly." Check them out.

The most important clue as to the time frame of Revelation is 1:10, where John speaking says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet."

This phrase, "the Lord's day" is "the day of the Lord" where the emphasis has been changed from the CHARACTER of the day, to the TIME.

Today, Sunday is called "the Lord's day" tieing it to the Lord's Resurrection on the first day of the week. However, that phrase was not being used at the time of John's writing Revelation.

According to Wikipedia, the first undisputed written record of the phrase was in The Apocryphical Gospel of Peter, dated in the first half of the second century A.D.

So, John writes he was "in spirit in the Lord's day" or the "day of the Lord", or, the "day of Jehovah" as some put it.

And, from all the many places in the OT that it is spoken of, or alluded to, I am assured that it has to do with Israel and the nations on earth.

I know there is much more, but all for now. Bick

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

Now, concerning the tribulation and the Day of the Lord. My studies indicate the tribulation period can be called the time of God's wrath, especially the lst half. Certainly this is brought out in Revelation. See Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18, 16:19 and 19:15.

But, we read in three place that the church/body will not [/i]

Okay, I see what you mean, I agree that we are not going to be in the second part of the seven years.
Rom 5:9b we shall be saved from wrath through him.
&
1Thed 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath
The question remains, when is that described in the Book of Revelations?

I would sugjest Chpt. 8 & Chpt. 14

 

[Diolectic]

Diolectic,

nice to see you're into eschatology. Hope we don't butt heads too much. 8-)

Question;

The 144,000 are mentioned twice in Rev. Do you believe they are the same 144,000?

To put it short, Yes.

 

[Vic C.]

To put it short, Yes.

Cool 8-) We agree.

I have been studying the historlcal view of the End Times but I am very familiar with the futuristic view, especially the position called PreWrath. This is the futuristic view I find most appealing. Anyways...

You said:

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

I struggle with the idea that the 144,000 is not literal and that they are included in the harpazo of the ekklesia. I read Rev 14 and interpret it to say the 144,000 are on earth with the Lamb. Verse 2 indicates that John is back on earth when he says,

"...And I heard a voice from heaven,...".

Verse 3 says they were redeemed from the earth, not reomved from the earth. This explains it better that I could:

http://www.revelationcommentary.org/14_chapter.html

(see also Jeremiah 31:6-7 , Joel 2:32 , Joel 3:17 , Micah 4:7 Isaiah 2:2-4 and more that I forgot)

I believe they are on the earth for the duration of Daniel's 70th. week. I also believe the seal is none other than the Tefillin. http://www.jewfaq.org/signs.htm#Tefillin

It makes sense if you consider the antichrist counterfeits the "things" of God. Rev 13:16

I also believe they will be responsible for protecting the remnant of Israel who will come to salvation at the end of the week (Rev 12:6) and also to be a witness for the Lord (Rev 12:11). This could only be if they are here for the duration of the week.

... and since Rev is primary Jewish in nature, this all fits well.

Remember, it was the earthly Kingdom which was offered to them in the Gospel era of the Bible, which they rejected by rejecting their Messiah. Nonetheless, it is this Kingdom that will be given to God's remnant of Israel. They will come to know their Messiah and they will be delivered.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Bick]

The 144,000

Quote by Dioletic:

If the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation, what is this suposed to mean?
Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

I believe this woman is a figure of Israel. Going back to vs. 1 we read,

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of 12 stars."
This "wonder" is a "sign", always which the Jews were looking for.

This takes us back to Gen. 37, the only place in the scriptures to correspond to this sign above:

Gen. 37:9 concerning Joseph's dream, "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren and said, 'behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." In this case, the sun was Joseph's father, the moon was his mother, and the eleven stars were his brothers,

To repeat, I believe this will be a sign understood by many Israelites during the end times of the tribulation. The "sun" ties in with Jacob (Israel) and the stars represent the 12 sons of Jacob. Israel's hope is the Messiah, which they have been looking for for centuries. In this sign, the woman is with child and in pain ready to deliver the man-child, who can only be the Messiah.

Bye for now. Bick

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

Quote by Dioletic:

If the church/body of Christ has no place in Revelation, what is this suposed to mean?
Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

I believe this woman is a figure of Israel. Going back to vs. 1 we read,

I agree, however I meant to point out "the rest of her seed" which I believe to be the church.

 

[Diolectic]

Cool We agree.

I have been studying the historlcal view of the End Times but I am very familiar with the futuristic view, especially the position called PreWrath. This is the futuristic view I find most appealing. Anyways...

I am PreWrath.

I struggle with the idea that the 144,000 is not literal

Then, what about how I explained it being non literal.
Why are they listed the way they are?

The 144000 in Rev 14 is a good guide for a time line.


Rev.14:14-16 is an analogy for the Rapture that we also read from the 144,000 which is just a few verses before the statement of Gods’ judgment in Rev.14:7.
If we understand that these verses of the harvest(first fruits) as an analogy, Then Rev.14:17-20 is also an analogy for the judgment of the unjust.
I would also like to suggest that since we don’t read of any trumpets in this “great sign†it would be safe to fit them in where they would be in the chronology of the events.
I would also like to point out again that the seals start at Rev.12:-14:
the trumpets would fit into Rev.14:6 - 16:21.
We must keep in mind, the Bowl & the Trumpets are all in the 6th and 7th seal and the Bowls are all in the 6th and 7th trumpet.

 

[Bick]

Re: The 144,000

I agree, however I meant to point out "the rest of her seed" which I believe to be the church.

Why would you want "the rest of her seed" to be the church (I suppose you mean the body of Christ)?

Christ's body has no part in the book of Revelation. They will have already been taken to the heavens.

If the woman is Israel, then "the rest of her seed" are Israelites on the earth at that time. They will be especially persecuted by Satan and his followers.

Bick

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Well according to Ezekial the return of the Tribes is Literal, and since Israel and Judah haven't joined yet, your missing part of the analogy.

Eze 37:15 - 22 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Unless, Israel is dead and not scattered, your interpretation could not be totally true, but then God would be a liar also. Remember Revelation is a Jewish minded book. God intends fully to reconcile and establish his promise to Abraham that hasn't been totally fulfilled yet. And couldn't be fulfulled with just the church in mind.
There is no rapture also, and no one will be changed until that man is revealed. His number being 666, which could be interpreted by Revelation alone as the 6th trumpet, seal and vial. Occurs only at that time. As John said in his opening verses of the Apocalypse Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.

And to quote Bullinger Directly (The only Christian Scholar allowed to edit the Massoretic texts)

When the word Ecclesia, in the Apocalypse is rendered "Church," and the word "Synagogue"in Rev. ii. 9 and iii. 9, is interpreted of the church, it is playing fast and loose with the "words which the Holy Ghost speaketh," and which He has employed, not only for His revelation, but for our instructions.

We hold that the Apocalypse contains a record (by vision and prophecy) of the events which shall happen "hereafter" in the Day of the Lord; that the whole book is concerned with the Jew, the Gentile, and the Earth, but not with the Church of God, or with Christendom; or with the latter only so far as the present corruption of Christianity shall merge in the great apostasy, and form part of it, after the Church, the Body of Christ, shall have been removed.

But there will be a people for God on the earth during those eventful years. There will be the remnant of believing Israelites; the 144,000 sealed ones; the great multitude; and other bodies of faithful ones who are referred to all through the Book (see chaps. vii., xi., and xii. 17). In which latter passage we read of "the remnant of her (the woman's) seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

Why would you want "the rest of her seed" to be the church (I suppose you mean the body of Christ)?

It it not a matter of want, but how I understand.
Yes, I mean the body of Christ.

Christ's body has no part in the book of Revelation. They will have already been taken to the heavens.

I know they do very much.
I tend more to a pre-wrath Rapture heading toward near post-trib.

If the woman is Israel, then "the rest of her seed" are Israelites on the earth at that time. They will be especially persecuted by Satan and his followers.

Israel does not keep the commandments of God nor does she having the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The verse sais, "the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This must mean the church, for the discription is not the woman.

God intends fully to reconcile and establish his promise to Abraham that hasn't been totally fulfilled yet. And couldn't be fulfulled with just the church in mind.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say just the church exclusivly.

As I said in my OP, it it the completed "Israel of God", Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace through Christ.

There is no rapture also, and no one will be changed until that man is revealed. His number being 666, which could be interpreted by Revelation alone as the 6th trumpet, seal and vial. Occurs only at that time.

If your interp is correct, then Chapt 7 & 14 is not the Rapture.

What els could Rev 7:9 mean other that the rapture when it sais, After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
This is immediatly after the 144000; which is why I see as the whole of God's people "The completed Israel of God."

We hold that the Apocalypse contains a record (by vision and prophecy) of the events which shall happen "hereafter" in the Day of the Lord; that the whole book is concerned with the Jew, the Gentile, and the Earth, but not with the Church of God,

When do you supose that the Church of God is taken out?

or with the latter only so far as the present corruption of Christianity shall merge in the great apostasy, and form part of it, after the Church, the Body of Christ, shall have been removed.

That is happening right now.
2Thes 2:3 is half complete right now.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

This is an interesting discussion! Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to really respond correctly as I should. Your points are well taken. Rapture isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture. I'm glad Ezekial made one point I was trying to make. Even Bullinger uses the term rapture to describe the church's exit. But, with all that being said. I believe it's a change from mortal to immortal bodies. Remember, God brings heaven to earth, its not the opposite. Theres also 144,000 in heaven but thats a different subject. Anyways, I'm laboring for words to get in all me thoughts, but that won't happen. The Thessalions (I think) worried that the coming of the Lord already happened. But, Paul told them the living won't precede the dead since there already with God. And since there will be living when this does happen, what does that tell you? Anyways Peace be with you!

 

[Bick]

The 144,000

Quote from Dioletic:
What els could Rev 7:9 mean other that the rapture when it sais, After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
This is immediatly after the 144000; which is why I see as the whole of God's people "The completed Israel of God."

You can't take one verse out from the context to prove something!

Verse 7:13-14 tells who they are:

"AND ONE OF THE ELDERS ANSWERED, SAYING UNTO ME, WHAT ARE THESE WHICH ARE ARRAYED IN WHITE ROBES? AND WHENCE CAME THEY?
AND I SAID UNTO HIM, SIR THOU KNOWEST. AND HE SAID TO ME, 'THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB."

They are individuals who have come out of great tribulation, from, evidently, every nation on the earth. It doesn't say they have been resurrected, only that they, evidently, endured to the end of the tribulation, and then will serve Messiah Jesus (the Lamb) in the coming kingdom.

Bick

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

They are individuals who have come out of great tribulation, from, evidently, every nation on the earth. It doesn't say they have been resurrected, only that they, evidently, endured to the end of the tribulation, and then will serve Messiah Jesus (the Lamb) in the coming kingdom.

Bick

I see the 1st 144000 are the same as the 2nd 144000.
Right after the 2nd 144000, in Rev 14:7 "the hour of His judgment has come" and we are not to be in HIS judgment.
Furhtermore, Rev 14:14-16 is the reaping of the Harvest of wheat told about in Matthew 13:36.

However, There is no Trumpetts in this sign, so I see it being in the 6th Seal with the 1st 144000.

I think the Trumpet & the seals are mixed together and last, maybe, about 6 months with refrence to Rev 9:5

 

[Bick]

The 144,000

Again, Dioletic, why do you keep looking for verses in Revelation to relate them to the church/body of Christ?

Read Ephesians chapters 1 through 3, especially.

We are told that God has blessed us in the heavenlies with all spiritual blessings! In God's mind it is a fact, for he sees the future as if now.

And in 2:6-7 we read, that our standing is that we have been "raised up with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly realms...that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." NIV.

If we are in the heavenly realms in the coming ages, we certainly will not be back down on earth in the Messianic Kingdom, which Jesus referred to as "the age to come." See Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30, NIV.

Bick

 

[Vic C.]

I too see Rev 7:9 as describing events right after the Rapture. Classic PreWrath adheres to this also. PreWrath also puts the sheep and goat judgement around Rev 14:15, which, IMO, is not the harpazo.

IMO, John takes us back in time somewhere around late ch. 11 and brings us back into view around late ch.15, which in PreWrath, is the end of the week, with the vials occurring just after the week ends, Remember, in Daniel's 12th. chapter, there is an additional 30 and 45 days added to the end of the 1260.

This is a long read, but the chronology of Revelation here is fairly consistant with the PreWrath position.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html