The 144,000 & the twelve tribes of Israel

[Bick]

The 144,000

Hi Vic C. What exactly is the "pre-wrath" view?

It sounds as if you would have the church/body be 'raptured' in the middle of the tribulation.

If so, I must ask, how can you have the church/body of Christ down on the earth?

As I pointed out in my previous post, we, the church/body, are slated to have glorified, spiritual bodies fit for the heavenlies where God has prepared blessings beyond our imagination.

We will be witnessing to the principalities and powers (spirit beings) in the heavenlies, the manifold wisdom and grace of God lavished on us through Christ Jesus our Lord. This will be for the ages to come.

Again, I plead, read Ephesians 1 through 3.

 

[Diolectic]

Re: The 144,000

Again, Dioletic, why do you keep looking for verses in Revelation to relate them to the church/body of Christ?

I don't "look" for verses in Revelation to relate them to the church/body of Christ;
I only read and understand that "the church/body of Christ" is in them.

Read Ephesians chapters 1 through 3, especially.

I have many times, and this last time, I saw nothing to sway my understanding.

If we are in the heavenly realms in the coming ages, we certainly will not be back down on earth in the Messianic Kingdom, which Jesus referred to as "the age to come." See Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30, NIV.

Eph 2:6a And hath raised us up together. That is, we are raised from being dead in sin and tresspasses(Eph 2:1)

Eph 2:6b and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Refrence this with Col 2:12-15

Eph 2:7a that He might demonstrate in the ages coming on,
"The coming ages" is a refrence not only for the apocalyptic times, but also the pain old future from their time on.

Eph 2:7 the exceeding great riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
He demonstrates this in us on earth so that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. 2Th 1:12

Hi Vic C. What exactly is the "pre-wrath" view?

It sounds as if you would have the church/body be 'raptured' in the middle of the tribulation.

"pre-wrath" is being cought up befor His wrath, but here during the wrath of the devil.
But not "smack dab in the middle of the seven yaer period, but more toward the late mid or end.

If so, I must ask, how can you have the church/body of Christ down on the earth?

Dan 11:35 And many of those who understand shall stumble, to refine and to purge them, and to make white to the time of the end. For it is yet for the appointed time.
&
1Corinth 3:15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

Furthermore, it is not "us" who "ave the church/body of Christ down on the earth" but God.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: The 144,000

Hi Vic C. What exactly is the "pre-wrath" view?

It sounds as if you would have the church/body be 'raptured' in the middle of the tribulation.

If so, I must ask, how can you have the church/body of Christ down on the earth?

As I pointed out in my previous post, we, the church/body, are slated to have glorified, spiritual bodies fit for the heavenlies where God has prepared blessings beyond our imagination.

We will be witnessing to the principalities and powers (spirit beings) in the heavenlies, the manifold wisdom and grace of God lavished on us through Christ Jesus our Lord. This will be for the ages to come.

Again, I plead, read Ephesians 1 through 3.

Please don't take offense at what I say, but the most difficult of people to explain this to are the pretribulationists and the preterists. Actually, the preterist can wrap their brain around the concept of a harpazo just prior to God's Wrath (which we call The Day of the Lord) but will disagree nonetheless.

PreWrath places a clear distinction between the Great Tribulation (persecution from antichrist against God's elect) and HIS Wrath (Day of the Lord). The OT is a great resource on the Day of the Lord (it is mentioned 40 times in the KJV). Tribulation is mentioned a mere three times; none of it being "instigated" by the Lord.

There is no promise, outside of Rev 3:10 (which is reserved for a specific group of believers anyway) that the ekklesia is exempt of any tribulation whatsoever.

The Day of the Lord and Day of Christ are mentioned just six times in the NT; Tribulation 19 times (three of them; Great Tribulation).

My studies declare these (The GT and Day of the Lord) are two seperate events. The "Blessed hope" imo, is

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I heven't even touched on the word wrath. 8-)

There is a wealth of information on the Web concerning PreWrath, but beware; some of it is negative and grossly misrepresents the PreWrath position. Any question? Just ask a PreWrather. ;-)

 

[lecoop]

Re: The 144,000

Hi Vic C. What exactly is the "pre-wrath" view?

It sounds as if you would have the church/body be 'raptured' in the middle of the tribulation.

If so, I must ask, how can you have the church/body of Christ down on the earth?

As I pointed out in my previous post, we, the church/body, are slated to have glorified, spiritual bodies fit for the heavenlies where God has prepared blessings beyond our imagination.

We will be witnessing to the principalities and powers (spirit beings) in the heavenlies, the manifold wisdom and grace of God lavished on us through Christ Jesus our Lord. This will be for the ages to come.

Again, I plead, read Ephesians 1 through 3.

The prewrath position must change the chronology of the book, to make sense of their beliefs. They see the rapture before the wrath, and therefore, must have the rapture before the 6th seal, where His wrath is mentioned. (So far so good. They are right about the timing of the rapture.) Where they miss it, is saying that the time of Great tribulation must then, be before this rapture, at the sixth seal. Therefore, they must put most of the 70th week, before the 6th seal. This does not agree with John's timing. The prewrath position then, puts the abominaton event before John even starts the 70th week!

Then, reading on later in the book, chapters 11-13, seem very much like the midpoint of the week, and the time of great tribulation, so they say that these chapters are a "rehash" of what takes place somewhere in the first 5 seals. They arrive at this misunderstanding of John's chronology because of two specific verses:

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light,...

Rev 6:12 When He [the Lamb] broke open the sixth seal, I looked, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun grew black as sackcloth of hair, [the full disc of] the moon became like blood

These two verse sound like they are speaking of the same event, since the sun is darkened and the light of the moon changes. However, it is impossible that these two verses are speaking of the same event, simply because of the timing. John shows us that the 6th seal is the warning that the 70th week (which included the time of GT) is about to start. This means that that time of GT will NOT arrive until the middle of the week, starting when the abomination event will take place. John shows us that this abomination event takes place in the 11th chapter, not anywhere in chapter 6.

Then Jesus shows us exactly when the signs of His coming will take place: AFTER that time of GT. When will that be in Revelation? John clearly shows Jesus coming back, in chapter 19! Therefore, if John has shown us those signs mentioned by Jesus, they would have been sometime between 16:17 (the end of the 70th week) and 19:11. However, John did not see these signs, warning of His coming, and so did not write about them. He did write about the signs warning of the start of the 70th week and day of the Lord.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Re: The 144,000

You can't take one verse out from the context to prove something!

Verse 7:13-14 tells who they are:

"AND ONE OF THE ELDERS ANSWERED, SAYING UNTO ME, WHAT ARE THESE WHICH ARE ARRAYED IN WHITE ROBES? AND WHENCE CAME THEY?
AND I SAID UNTO HIM, SIR THOU KNOWEST. AND HE SAID TO ME, 'THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB."

They are individuals who have come out of great tribulation, from, evidently, every nation on the earth. It doesn't say they have been resurrected, only that they, evidently, endured to the end of the tribulation, and then will serve Messiah Jesus (the Lamb) in the coming kingdom.

Bick

How could they have "endured to the end of the tribulation" when John sees them in heaven, BEFORE the 70th week has even started?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Bick,

I guess this needs repeating

There is a wealth of information on the Web concerning PreWrath, but beware; some of it is negative and grossly misrepresents the PreWrath position. Any question? Just ask a PreWrather.

Also understand that Coop places the start of the week right before the trumpet judgements of God's Wrath. He places almost all the seals throughout history.

 

[lecoop]

Since the link was made available for a further study of the prewrath position, I think it fair to take a look at some of the information in that link.

The archangel Michael always has been the special protective “prince†of Daniel’s people, Israel (Daniel 10:13,21). At the midpoint of the 70th Week, he is seen to “arise†or “stand up.†The term used is the Hebrew word amad, which actually means to “stand aside,†“stand still,†“desist,†or “be inactive.†Other examples of the usage of amad are found in Job 32:16, Nehemiah 8:5, and 2 Samuel 18:30 (see Amad).The archangel Michael always has been the special protective “prince†of Daniel’s people, Israel (Daniel 10:13,21). At the midpoint of the 70th Week, he is seen to “arise†or “stand up.†The term used is the Hebrew word amad, which actually means to “stand aside,†“stand still,†“desist,†or “be inactive.†Other examples of the usage of amad are found in Job 32:16, Nehemiah 8:5, and 2 Samuel 18:30 (see Amad).

This sounds reasonable, unless you look it up. Here is what Thayers says:

AV - stood 171, stand 137, (raise, stand...) up 42, set 32, stay 17,
still 15,...

Stood and stand are close enough that they could be together, as is "up." Therefore, we have "stand up" 171+137+42, or 350 times with the connotation of arising to do something.

Then we have 17 for "stay," and 15 for "still," or a total of 32. I would not say then, that "amad," "actually means to “stand aside,†“stand still,†“desist,†or “be inactive.†" Yes, it is used infrequently that way, but for the most part, it is used to stand up, or arise.

Now let's look and see why Michael might arise, or stand up.

Daniel 12
1 AND AT that time [of the end] Michael shall arise, the great [angelic] prince who defends and has charge of your [Daniel's] people. And there shall be a time of trouble, straitness, and distress such as never was since there was a nation till that time.

What time? Daniel does not make it clear. However, one could assume that it would be just before that time of trouble. What will Michael be doing right at that time? John tells us.

Rev 12
6 And the woman [herself] fled into the desert (wilderness), where she has a retreat prepared [for her] by God, in which she is to be fed and kept safe for 1,260 days (42 months; three and one-half years).
7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels went forth to battle with the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought.

Why did the woman flee? Because she was the abomination event that took place at the exact midpoint of the week. When then, did Michael arise to do battle with the dragon? Again, right at the middle of the week.

According to prewrath thought, Michael stand DOWN and quits, right when he must do battle with the Dragon! Therefore, it is MOST likely that the amad in Dan 12:1 is to arise, or get up, not stand aside.

Coop

 

[Diolectic]

Bick,

I guess this needs repeating



Also understand that Coop places the start of the week right before the trumpet judgements of God's Wrath. He places almost all the seals throughout history.

I place the four Horses frome the birth of Israel all the way up to the Rapture, which is also Rev 12-13
The White Hores chapter 12: 5-10
The Red Horse Chapter 12: 11-17
The Black Horse Chapter 13:6-10,
The Pale horse & with His Follower Chapter 13:11-18

However, this would be anouther thread.

 

[lecoop]

At only one other place in the New Testament is the term “great tribulation†seen: Revelation 7:14. Nowhere else in the New Testament is the word “tribulation†found. The label of “tribulation†is found in the annotated Bible notes of some “Pre-Tribulation†Rapture advocates, such as C. I. Scofield and Grant Jeffrey. As such, even though I agree that the term “tribulation†(implying “distressâ€Â) is an apt description of the overall atmosphere and mood of the 70th Week, its use as a substitutionary name for that final period of seven years is not scriptural.

(Emphasis added)

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

As seen in the above verse, Mr. Montgomery was inaccurate in his statement that "at only one other place in the New Testament is the term “great tribulation†seen." It is extremely doubtful that this verse 22 above is in reference to that time immediately following the abomination. God is telling us that He can create "great tribulation" anytime He wants to.

Nowhere else in the New Testament is the word “tribulation†found.

Perhaps he meant "great" tribulation, for the word "tribulation" is found many times.

"its [tribulation] use as a substitutionary name for that final period of seven years is not scriptural."

I agree with Montgomery here: I think we should call this time period the "70th week."

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Another self-evident axiom is that Jesus’ description of the cosmic disturbances, as well as everyone’s observation of it (Matthew 24:29,30), is paralleled in the Book of Revelation by John’s description of what will occur after the opening of the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6:12-17).

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

This is NOT a "self evident" axiom, at all, and is where prewrath thought goes astray. Jesus is clear that the signs preceding His coming, will be "immediately after" those days of tribulation. But John also is clear that the signs at the 6th seal precede the beginning of the day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. We see many proofs of this, as John goes through the trumpets in the first half of the week, arrives at the exact midpoint at the 7th trumpet, and then shows us many events that will take place at the mid point of the week, in chapters 11-13. What should be "self evident," is that John is at the midpoint of the week in chapter 11.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The word “distress,†in some versions of the Bible, is translated “tribulation.†For many, there is an erroneous assumption that “tribulation†refers to the entire 70th Week (final 7-year period). Yet, there is nothing at all in the Bible assigning or referring the term “tribulation†to the 70th Week. The only portion of the 70th Week which aptly can be called a period of “great tribulation†is the period following the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation (in the middle of the seven years) to the point when the Sixth Seal is opened.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

There can be no doubt that we should be calling this entire week, "the 70th week of Daniel" or "Jacob's trouble." (Jacob had to work for 7 years for each of his wives.) I don't even think we should call the last half of the week, "the great tribulation," for Jesus did NOT put a title on the second half of the week. What He did say, was that the time following the abomination event would be a time of great stress. Again, there can be no doubt that this abomination event will take place at the exact middle of the week. However, Mr. Montgomery adds, "to the point when the sixth seal is opened," which is totally in error. John shows us that the events preceding the 6th seal, are in the church age. The first five seals were broken about 33 AD. We are now waiting on the sixth. John also shows us clearly that he is at the midpoint, in chapter 11, NOT in chapter 6. In Chapter 12, we see the woman fleeing into the wilderness. She is fleeing because she just saw the abomination event. John did not mention it, but it took place at the same time the 7th trumpet was sounded in heaven. Therefore, John shows us that he gets to the midpoint of the week, and to the abomination, in chapter 11, NOT in chapter 6.

Neither is there ANY reason to assume that JOhn was flashing back in these chapters, to repeat things in the seals. There are no verses giving us any indication of flashbacks.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Here is Jesus’ description of what will happen simultaneous with or immediately following the cosmic disturbances of the Sixth Seal (as described by Jesus in Matthew 24:29):

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:30,31).

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

Sorry, but Jesus does not "appear" in the sky until Rev, 19! No one will see Him until he comes on the white horse, in chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished. (Exception: the church will see Him at the meeting in the air!) He is NOT seen by the world, and the world will not mourn until they see Him as shown to us in chapter 19. There is no proof that the gathering of the elect is refering to the rapture. Rather, John shows us the rapture LONG before Jesus shows us that this "gathering" will take place. This gathering by the angels is after the entire 70th week is over, which, I might add, lines up perfectly with Rev. chapter 19, and Jesus coming on the white horse. (The 70th week being finished at the 7th vial.)

However, JOhn DOES show us the raptured church, in Rev. 7, immediately after the 6th seal event. Since we have a precedent for earthquakes and resurrections to happen at the same time, it is a good guess that the rapture (the dead in Christ rising first) will take place at the great earthquake felt around the world, at the 6th seal. This would make the rapture just before the start of the day of the Lord, just before the start of the 70th week, and just before the start of God's wrath. However, this is NOT Jesus coming on the white horse.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Commonly, but I believe inappropriately, the entire 70th Week is referred to as the Day of the Lord by those who embrace the “Pre-Tribulation†Rapture point of view. On the contrary, I have shown that, starting at the midpoint of the 70th Week, the following eventsâ€â€as a sequence of four axioms used as foundational blocks in demonstrating the timing of the Pre-Wrath Rapture eventâ€â€will occur in chronological order:

the cessation of sacrifices and offerings, then the abomination that causes desolation inside the newly-built Jewish temple, which will be standing in Jerusalem;
the beginning of the Great Tribulation period;
the cosmic disturbances of the Sixth Seal, where the sun and moon will turn dark and the heavenlies will be shaken;
the Pre-Wrath Rapture of believers, and finally
the Day of the Lord, which is not merely one day in length but is a period of time (beginning with the opening of the Seventh Seal), during which the devastating wrath of God will be poured out upon the earth.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

I am definitely pretrib, but I disagree with this. The 70th week ends at the 7th vial, but the day of the Lord continues. Both start at the 7th seal.

Once again, Mr. Montgomery chooses to start those days of "great tribulation," before John even starts the 70th week!

A proper chronology would go more like this:

First five seals opened about 33 AD
6th seal/rapture and sealing of the 144,000
7th seal starts the 70th week
7th trumpet "marks" the exact midpoint
abomination event
"woman" flees into the wilderness
Dragon cast out of the heavenlies
Angels preach the message: worship God - refuse the mark!
Beast sets up mark
Some time after, God starts pouring out the vials
Those days of intense persecution are shortened (by the vials).
7th vial "marks" the end of the 70th week.
Wedding in heaven
Supper in heaven
Soon after, Jesus comes on the white horse
Battle of Armageddon

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Paul noted that, at a certain time, this man will be “revealed†(2 Thessalonians 2:3). This will be at the midpoint of the final seven years, when the Antichrist will walk into the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and set up the abomination that causes desolation. Displaying his true character and temperament, he will begin to behave as a “beast,†will utter blasphemies against God, and will make war against the saints of God. He will conquer them for a period of 42 months or for “a time, times and half a time†(that is, one year plus two years plus half a year), which will be the final 3½ years (Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:5-7) of the 70th Week.

INteresting, John shows this in chapter 13, right after the exact midpoint, and abomination event. In fact, John gives us FIVE verses naming events that start at the midpoint, and go to the end, and in EACH CASE, God has given us the 3 1/2 years HINT of the midpoint of the week. Where are these references? IN chapters 11-13. This shows us conclusively that the midpoint of the 70th week, according to John, is here in chapters 11-13, NOT before the 6th seal.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Much of God’s vengeance during the Day of the Lord will be in response to slain believers, having cried out to God during the Fifth Seal persecution, to judge mankind and to avenge their blood, which will have been shed upon the earth:

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

Is the 5th seal, a 70th week event? No, it was broken about 33 AD. Stephen and James were two of the first martyrs in this seal. Those killed by the beast will be beheaded. They are a special group. These are those that have lost their life during the church age.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I place the four Horses frome the birth of Israel all the way up to the Rapture, which is also Rev 12-13
The White Hores chapter 12: 5-10
The Red Horse Chapter 12: 11-17
The Black Horse Chapter 13:6-10,
The Pale horse & with His Follower Chapter 13:11-18

However, this would be anouther thread.

The White Horse chapter 12: 5-10

Chapter 12 is at the midpoint of the 70th week. The first seal was broken about 33 AD. How then can you put these together? The white horse is in chapter 6, and you link it with chapter 12. Why? Who in these verses are you linking with the white horse and rider? Michael?

The Red Horse Chapter 12: 11-17

The red horse is all about war, but he is limited to one fourth of the earth. Are you saying then, that the dragon will be limited to one fourth of the earth? I disagree. Yes, 11-17 does seem like war, but it will be the dragon persecuting (through the beast) anyone that refuses the mark. On the other hand, the red horse is war, such as 1st WW, 2nd WW, etc. Again, I cannot see how you can link these together.

The Black Horse Chapter 13:6-10,

These verses speak of war with the saints, as in separating people from their heads, if they refuse the mark. Yes, they certainly die. But again, do you see the beast as limited to one fourth of the earth?

Finally, look at the timing issue. In chapters 12 & 13, John is in the midpoint intermission, meaning that he is at the midpoint of the 70th week in his narrative. On the other hand, the first seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven.

Coop

 

[Bick]

The 144,000

Fellow students of the Bible:

The book of Revelation is nearly all concerning the Lord's day, or, the Day of the Lord.

"The Day of the Lord" is the phrase used in the OT, all who wrote of something future. And John wrote in Rev.1:10, that he was "in spirit" "in the Lord's day."

Now, the emphasis is on the "day", for he was there in the vision.

And, IMO, the "day" started at the beginning of the 7 years (Daniel's 70th week).

The subjects of Revelation is Israel and the nations.

The future of the church is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

Bick