The Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Electedbyhim and GodsGrace and Greetings Hawkman,

Please confirm with a yes or no answer. Do you deny that God came as Jesus Christ in the flesh?

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition.

Who was in Mary's womb?

A human child in development, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother.

Angels have their work to do,,,but that work does not include creation. If you think they do we'll be needing verses. Again, only God creates.

You have not properly assessed Psalm 8:5 which is a summary and succinct commentary by David concerning Genesis 1:26-27.

Elohim could mean God or gods back in the OT times. It came, eventually, to mean God.

This seems to reflect a higher criticism view. The Bible is inspired from Genesis 1:1 and the meaning of "Elohim" is consistent throughout the Bible and part of the range of meaning and application of "Elohim" is confirmed by Jesus in John 10:30-36.
Your article "What are Elohim Angels" has many erroneous ideas and does not understand and properly expound Psalm 8:5 and and Psalm 82. I do not endorse some of the extremes that the article is contesting.

Plainly the bible said , "God walking in the garden " I take that literally , no reason not to

I understand that there was a company of Angels in the Garden, and one specific would be a Prince or ArchAngel among these, and it was his voice that Adam heard, possibly discussing the Failure of Adam and Eve with his Angel companions. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was in heaven. No man, especially sinners, have seen God, yet the Angels confronted Adam and Eve and drove them out of the Garden. The Angels then placed Cherubim at the entrance of the garden to protect the Way to the Tree of Life.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

I understand that there was a company of Angels in the Garden, and one specific would be a Prince or ArchAngel among these, and it was his voice that Adam heard, possibly discussing the Failure of Adam and Eve with his Angel companions. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was in heaven. No man, especially sinners, have seen God, yet the Angels confronted Adam and Eve and drove them out of the Garden. The Angels then placed Cherubim at the entrance of the garden to protect the Way to the Tree of Life.

My understanding of Genesis Chapter 3 comes from the KJV , TrevorL where does your understanding come from ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hawkman,

My understanding of Genesis Chapter 3 comes from the KJV , @TrevorL where does your understanding come from ?

I should imagine that EVERY translation of Genesis 3 says more or less the same thing - are you conscious of any significant variation on this matter? My understanding of all aspects of the Genesis 1-3 account is by careful consideration of the whole narrative, and also from an extended study on the Name and Titles of the Deity. My tentative definition of Elohim and the plurality of this word is that it speaks of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to share his plan, purpose and work with other created beings, such as Angels, Judges, the Lord Jesus Christ, and eventually with the faithful.

As far as the word "Elohim" is concerned, I could start at Genesis 1:1 and then consider Genesis 1:26-27.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV): In the beginning God (plural "Elohim") created (singular verb) the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV): 26 And God (Elohim) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God (Elohim) created (singular verb) man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There is an invitation by Elohim to others to participate in the creation of man in verse, but there is only mention of God in verse 27. I understand God is speaking to the Angels in verse 26.

I would also draw attention to Genesis 3:5, where "Elohim" also occurs. Seeing you like the KJV of Genesis 3, how do you explain the occurrence of "Elohim" in the following:
Genesis 3:4–5 (KJV): 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.
And what is the connection between this and the following:
Genesis 3:22 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This is a reasonable start to the subject of "Elohim" but there are many other passages that could be discussed including Psalm 8:5 and Psalm 82 which have already been raised, but there are many other relevant passages.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Yet, the OT shows a plurality within the one God.


Of course not. No one is saying he did.

Where does the OT show a plurality?

 

[hawkman]

I would also draw attention to Genesis 3:5, where "Elohim" also occurs. Seeing you like the KJV of Genesis 3, how do you explain the occurrence of "Elohim" in the following:
Genesis 3:4–5 (KJV): 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.

That is the serpent speaking ,that is how it occurred . God was not speaking . Is the serpent a liar ?

And what is the connection between this and the following:
Genesis 3:22 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

No Elohim in this passage .

My understanding of all aspects of the Genesis 1-3 account is by careful consideration of the whole narrative, and also from an extended study on the Name and Titles of the Deity.

Does anyone else share this understanding ? Is this your own doctrine ?

 

[electedbyhim]

Greetings again Electedbyhim and GodsGrace and Greetings Hawkman,

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition.

A human child in development, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother.

You have not properly assessed Psalm 8:5 which is a summary and succinct commentary by David concerning Genesis 1:26-27.

This seems to reflect a higher criticism view. The Bible is inspired from Genesis 1:1 and the meaning of "Elohim" is consistent throughout the Bible and part of the range of meaning and application of "Elohim" is confirmed by Jesus in John 10:30-36.
Your article "What are Elohim Angels" has many erroneous ideas and does not understand and properly expound Psalm 8:5 and and Psalm 82. I do not endorse some of the extremes that the article is contesting.

I understand that there was a company of Angels in the Garden, and one specific would be a Prince or ArchAngel among these, and it was his voice that Adam heard, possibly discussing the Failure of Adam and Eve with his Angel companions. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was in heaven. No man, especially sinners, have seen God, yet the Angels confronted Adam and Eve and drove them out of the Garden. The Angels then placed Cherubim at the entrance of the garden to protect the Way to the Tree of Life.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition.

I just want to know your belief if Jesus Christ is God.

It must be a secret.

 

[Runningman]

Where does the OT show a plurality?

I think people often try to say "elohim" refers to a plurality of God's to bolster the Trinity doctrine, but it can also refer to an angelic host or divine counsel also consisting of angels or sons of God.

Job 1:6 has the "elohim" (a plurality of angels. Satan included) presenting themselves before the singular God, YHWH.

6One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hawkman and electedbyhim,

That is the serpent speaking ,that is how it occurred . God was not speaking . Is the serpent a liar ?

Yes, the serpent was speaking and it appears that although a liar, as far as this detail is concerned he was partly correct, in that Adam and Eve "gained" a knowledge of good and evil when they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - a fairly obvious deduction.

No Elohim in this passage .

Yes, there is:
Genesis 3:22 (KJV): And the LORD (Yahweh) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Does anyone else share this understanding ? Is this your own doctrine ?

I should imagine if I closely discussed Genesis chapters 1-3 with senior members of my fellowship then we would agree on most of the detail that I have mentioned. My overall view is based on all of the uses of "Elohim" in the Pentateuch and the rest of the OT and the confirmation of this teaching in the NT by Jesus in John 10:30-36.

I just want to know your belief if Jesus Christ is God.

I considered the words you used were loaded in a particular way, almost quoting a particular passage. The English word "God" is different to the Hebrew word "Elohim" as Elohim has a wider range of meaning and application and is applied to God Himself, to Angels, to Judges, and especially to Jesus, and in anticipation to the Faithful in the future Kingdom. So Jesus is "Elohim".

In the English sense of the word, I believe that there is only One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and he is The Son of God by birth, by character and by resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

I should imagine if I closely discussed Genesis chapters 1-3 with senior members of my fellowship then we would agree on most of the detail that I have mentioned. My overall view is based on all of the uses of "Elohim" in the Pentateuch and the rest of the OT and the confirmation of this teaching in the NT by Jesus in John 10:30-36.

Ok , I see you have a good imagination . Let me know when they agree with you on your details mentioned . We can talk then . Thanks for the answers .

 

[Free]

Where does the OT show a plurality?

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Plurality when discussing, with himself, making man in his image, which then becomes singular when the creative act is carried out. One being that is God that talks to himself in the plural. We this again in:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” (ESV)

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Gen 11:7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” (ESV)

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” (ESV)

 

[electedbyhim]

Greetings again Hawkman and electedbyhim,

Yes, the serpent was speaking and it appears that although a liar, as far as this detail is concerned he was partly correct, in that Adam and Eve "gained" a knowledge of good and evil when they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - a fairly obvious deduction.

Yes, there is:
Genesis 3:22 (KJV): And the LORD (Yahweh) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I should imagine if I closely discussed Genesis chapters 1-3 with senior members of my fellowship then we would agree on most of the detail that I have mentioned. My overall view is based on all of the uses of "Elohim" in the Pentateuch and the rest of the OT and the confirmation of this teaching in the NT by Jesus in John 10:30-36.

I considered the words you used were loaded in a particular way, almost quoting a particular passage. The English word "God" is different to the Hebrew word "Elohim" as Elohim has a wider range of meaning and application and is applied to God Himself, to Angels, to Judges, and especially to Jesus, and in anticipation to the Faithful in the future Kingdom. So Jesus is "Elohim".

In the English sense of the word, I believe that there is only One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and he is The Son of God by birth, by character and by resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 See to yourselves, that you do not lose what we accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. The one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting,
2Jn 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hawkman and electedbyhim,

Ok , I see you have a good imagination . Let me know when they agree with you on your details mentioned . We can talk then . Thanks for the answers .

That's fine if you do not want to discuss further what I have already stated. I belong to a fellowship that has a fairly stable set of beliefs, well defined by our pioneers and early and recent magazines and these days the ready availability of mp3 and video expositions, and the traditional stability of our major meetings of which over the years I have been a member of four of these. We do not produce clones, nor do we have a central command, but each meeting is autonomous and the elders select the speakers, both from our meeting and visitors from local and other regions. As such we have an ebb and flow of people and ideas, but in the range of 1-10, most are in the 4-6 range.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting,
2Jn 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Yes, as I stated, your line of questions and statements remind me of the Spanish Inquisition. John is drawing attention to the development of wrong doctrine, and he highlights one major element. Now I believe that Jesus was of human nature, he came in the same flesh and blood that we share:
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (or Sin's flesh), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I understand "likeness" here is the same as "sameness", but Jesus was different in that though possessing Adam's fallen sinful nature, he never sinned, but overcame the flesh and rendered "sin" of no effect and condemned it.

John was guarding against those who denied the above and started to introduce the concept that Jesus was some sort of Divine emanation, having two natures. John assures us that Jesus was a human, not Deity. So be careful in your Inquisition, as there is a greater Judge who is very conscious of what is decided by the corrupt Judges of this world, and Elohim will soon arise to Judge and dismiss the unfaithful Psalm 82.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

nor do we have a central command,

Think that over .You do have a central command . Am I right ?

We have the same one , do we not ?

 

[CherubRam]

I think people often try to say "elohim" refers to a plurality of God's to bolster the Trinity doctrine, but it can also refer to an angelic host or divine counsel also consisting of angels or sons of God.

Job 1:6 has the "elohim" (a plurality of angels. Satan included) presenting themselves before the singular God, YHWH.

6One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Elohiym= God of the living ones.
elohiym= god-s of "The Living One."

 

[CherubRam]

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Plurality when discussing, with himself, making man in his image, which then becomes singular when the creative act is carried out. One being that is God that talks to himself in the plural. We this again in:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” (ESV)

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Gen 11:7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” (ESV)

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” (ESV)

The words "Let us" are not in the original Hebrew.


Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.


"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.

 

[Free]

The words "Let us" are not in the original Hebrew.


Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.


"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.

Please provide scholarly support for your assertion. And what translation is that? As per the RULES of this forum, you must provide the translation when quoting Scripture unless it's something in the public domain like the KJV.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hawkman,

Think that over .You do have a central command . Am I right ? We have the same one , do we not ?

Yes. My thoughts are that when I attend my meeting and partake of the bread and wine each Sunday, that I am first fellowshipping our Loving Heavenly Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Only then am I sharing fellowship with other members.

Important decisions are made in our business meetings, and some of these matters are settled by the majority. We have a general rule, that once "settled" that the possible minority accept the decision of the majority and conform to this. We have had one decision that I do not agree with, and still hold fiercely to my opinion on this issue, but I am willing to conform to the majority for the smooth running of the meeting.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Please provide scholarly support for your assertion. And what translation is that? As per the RULES of this forum, you must provide the translation when quoting Scripture unless it's something in the public domain like the KJV.

Check the NIV Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[follower]

The words "Let us" are not in the original Hebrew.

Likewise much of the Bible is not translated perfect.
I found that a 3 to 8 year old who is raised with/in Hebrew knowledge/language/customs accurately
knows more than scholars. The best info /truth/ is simple and delightful and terrifying to the world
when seen in light of Hebrew Word Studies - learning from YHVH in Y'shua as His Word Says Plainly we become wiser than our teachers.

 

[Free]

Likewise much of the Bible is not translated perfect.

Please provide solid evidence.