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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Trying to find "the Christ as God's son" in Old Te
- Thread starter Orion
- Start date
Re: Trying to find "the Christ as God's son" in Ol
The typology is there along with the prophecies but as God's son a bit more tricky.
BTW - For now how about Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God bless
Tough one for Christ was "hid" in the OT but I will see what I can come up with.Orion said:
The typology is there along with the prophecies but as God's son a bit more tricky.
BTW - For now how about Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God bless
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Re: Trying to find "the Christ as God's son" in Ol
The idea of "sons of God" has been around since Genesis. I understand that the 4th person in Daniel 3:25 is thought to be Jesus, but it doesn't mention who that person is, nor does it mean "the Messiah is God's own son". :-?
AVBunyan said:
The idea of "sons of God" has been around since Genesis. I understand that the 4th person in Daniel 3:25 is thought to be Jesus, but it doesn't mention who that person is, nor does it mean "the Messiah is God's own son". :-?
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Orion said:
Well, good luck with your search. If this verse did not do it for you, then I know I can't help you.
jgredline
Member
Here u go
When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13).
While Hagar was in the desert at Shur, on the way to Egypt, the Angel of the Lord came to her. This was the Lord Jesus in one of His preincarnate appearances, known as a Christophany. He counseled her to return and submit to Sarai, and promised that her son would become head of a great nation. That promise, of course, is fulfilled in the Arab people. The words Return ... and submit have marked great turning points in the lives of many who have had dealings with God. Hagars exclamation in verse 13 might be paraphrased, You are a God who may be seen, for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me? She named the well Beer Lahai Roi (literally, well of the One who lives and sees me).
Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).
To offer Isaac was surely the supreme test of Abrahams faith. God had promised to give Abraham a numberless posterity through his son. Isaac could have been as much as twenty-five at this time, and he was unmarried. If Abraham slew him, how could the promise be fulfilled? According to Hebrews 11:19, Abraham believed that even if he slew his son, God would raise him from the dead. This faith was remarkable because there was no recorded case of resurrection up to this time in the worlds history. When Isaac asked, Where is the lamb?, his father replied, God will provide for Himself the lamb. This promise was not ultimately fulfilled by the ram of verse 13 but by the Lamb of God (John 1:29).
There are two outstanding symbols of Christ in this chapter. Isaac is the first: an only son, loved by his father, willing to do his fathers will, received back from the dead in a figure. The ram is the second: an innocent victim died as a substitute for another, its blood was shed, and it was a burnt offering wholly consumed for God. Someone has said that, in providing the ram as a substitute for Isaac, God spared Abrahams heart a pang He would not spare His own. The Angel of the Lord in verses 11 and 15, as in all the Old Testament, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham named the place The-Lord-Will-Provide (Jehovah-jireh) (v. 14). This is one of the seven compound names for God in the OT . The others are:
Jehovah-RophekhaThe Lord who heals you(Ex. 15:26).
Jehovah-NissiThe Lord my banner(Ex. 17:8-15).
Jehovah-ShalomThe Lord our peace(Judg. 6:24).
Jehovah-RoiThe Lord my Shepherd(Ps. 23:1).
Jehovah-TsidkenuThe Lord our righteousness(Jer. 23:6).
Jehovah-ShammahThe Lord is present(Ezek. 48:35).
The Lord swore by Himself because He couldnt swear by anyone greater (Heb. 6:13). Gods promise here, confirmed by His oath, includes the blessing of the Gentile nations through Christ (see Gal. 3:16). In verse 17c God adds to the already vast blessing promised: Abrahams seed would possess the gate of his enemies. This means that his descendants would occupy the place of authority over those who would oppose them. The capture of the city gate meant the fall of the city itself
Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).
The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.
When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6).
The Lord appeared to him in a bush that burned with fire but ... was not consumed. The bush suggests the glory of God, before which he was told to stand with unshod feet. It might also foreshadow Jehovahs dwelling in the midst of His people without their being consumed. The word holy occurs here for the first time in the Bible. By removing his sandals, Moses acknowledged that the place was holy.God reassures Moses that He is the God of his forefathers Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-incarnite Jesus Christ.
The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19).
Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.
Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
Clearly the LORD and the Angel of God are both in the same.
Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).
Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.
Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."
Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."
I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.
The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).
Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..
When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4).
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us--
When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13).
While Hagar was in the desert at Shur, on the way to Egypt, the Angel of the Lord came to her. This was the Lord Jesus in one of His preincarnate appearances, known as a Christophany. He counseled her to return and submit to Sarai, and promised that her son would become head of a great nation. That promise, of course, is fulfilled in the Arab people. The words Return ... and submit have marked great turning points in the lives of many who have had dealings with God. Hagars exclamation in verse 13 might be paraphrased, You are a God who may be seen, for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me? She named the well Beer Lahai Roi (literally, well of the One who lives and sees me).
Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).
To offer Isaac was surely the supreme test of Abrahams faith. God had promised to give Abraham a numberless posterity through his son. Isaac could have been as much as twenty-five at this time, and he was unmarried. If Abraham slew him, how could the promise be fulfilled? According to Hebrews 11:19, Abraham believed that even if he slew his son, God would raise him from the dead. This faith was remarkable because there was no recorded case of resurrection up to this time in the worlds history. When Isaac asked, Where is the lamb?, his father replied, God will provide for Himself the lamb. This promise was not ultimately fulfilled by the ram of verse 13 but by the Lamb of God (John 1:29).
There are two outstanding symbols of Christ in this chapter. Isaac is the first: an only son, loved by his father, willing to do his fathers will, received back from the dead in a figure. The ram is the second: an innocent victim died as a substitute for another, its blood was shed, and it was a burnt offering wholly consumed for God. Someone has said that, in providing the ram as a substitute for Isaac, God spared Abrahams heart a pang He would not spare His own. The Angel of the Lord in verses 11 and 15, as in all the Old Testament, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham named the place The-Lord-Will-Provide (Jehovah-jireh) (v. 14). This is one of the seven compound names for God in the OT . The others are:
Jehovah-RophekhaThe Lord who heals you(Ex. 15:26).
Jehovah-NissiThe Lord my banner(Ex. 17:8-15).
Jehovah-ShalomThe Lord our peace(Judg. 6:24).
Jehovah-RoiThe Lord my Shepherd(Ps. 23:1).
Jehovah-TsidkenuThe Lord our righteousness(Jer. 23:6).
Jehovah-ShammahThe Lord is present(Ezek. 48:35).
The Lord swore by Himself because He couldnt swear by anyone greater (Heb. 6:13). Gods promise here, confirmed by His oath, includes the blessing of the Gentile nations through Christ (see Gal. 3:16). In verse 17c God adds to the already vast blessing promised: Abrahams seed would possess the gate of his enemies. This means that his descendants would occupy the place of authority over those who would oppose them. The capture of the city gate meant the fall of the city itself
Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).
The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.
When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6).
The Lord appeared to him in a bush that burned with fire but ... was not consumed. The bush suggests the glory of God, before which he was told to stand with unshod feet. It might also foreshadow Jehovahs dwelling in the midst of His people without their being consumed. The word holy occurs here for the first time in the Bible. By removing his sandals, Moses acknowledged that the place was holy.God reassures Moses that He is the God of his forefathers Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-incarnite Jesus Christ.
The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19).
Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.
Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
Clearly the LORD and the Angel of God are both in the same.
Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).
Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.
Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."
Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."
I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.
The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).
Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..
When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4).
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us--
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Perhaps a little cross reference work will help.
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
jgredline. I can see your point where The Lord and The Angel of the Lord could be the same person. I read your post and appreciate the amount of information you gave. But as my post (above this one) points out, I'm really looking for exact information.
Gabby, I know that there are many instances of Jesus as God's son in the New Testament. :fadein:
Gabbylittleangel said:
Gabby, I know that there are many instances of Jesus as God's son in the New Testament. :fadein:
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Connect the dots Orion.
You wanted something out of the Old Testament that says that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. I posted Psalm 2:7
Then you said
So, therefore I posted several verses that say that Psalm 2:7 is talking about Jesus Christ.
Notice that in Acts 13:33 quotes the exact same verse, and it even says that he is quoting the second psalm.
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
These verses in the New testament are quoting the verse from the Old testament. The verses in the New Testament are your confirmation that Psalms 2:7 is speaking of Jesus. So, it is God talking about His Son, not the writer, as you thought it seemed.
You wanted something out of the Old Testament that says that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. I posted Psalm 2:7
Gabbylittleangel said:
Then you said
Orion said:
So, therefore I posted several verses that say that Psalm 2:7 is talking about Jesus Christ.
Notice that in Acts 13:33 quotes the exact same verse, and it even says that he is quoting the second psalm.
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Orion said:
These verses in the New testament are quoting the verse from the Old testament. The verses in the New Testament are your confirmation that Psalms 2:7 is speaking of Jesus. So, it is God talking about His Son, not the writer, as you thought it seemed.
What does the Hebrew original text come out to be (in the Psalm 2:7 verse) when it mentions "the Lord"? It still doesn't look like it is God talking about the Christ/Messiah. It looks like the Lord is speaking to the writer. Again, it would be interesting to see the original meaning behind the words used because I wonder if there have been some capitalizations used in the KJV that shouldn't have been there. I only say that because the way this verse reads, it doesn't make sense to say that it is God talking about Jesus.
The key words in the verse are "Lord", "thou", "son", and "thee"Gabbylittleangel
Member
Orion said:
Orion,
What would Acts 13:33 be in reference to? It must also be talking about the mysterious person of Psalm 2:7, don't you think?
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
I see where you are coming from. Really I do. But because the writer of Acts had access to the Psalms, he could be misinterpreting or over reading it into what was actually meant IN that Psalm.
There's also the problem of something being born at some point (BEFORE being born in Bethlehem). If the Psalm verse is to be taken as "the Christ is God's son", then at what point (in Heaven) did God create his son (the Christ) when the Christ was supposed to be with God from the beginning, and is supposed to BE God? It just seems like another attempt at man trying to understand by placing limiting human characteristics upon God just so they can have some way of understanding the unknowable. :-?
There's also the problem of something being born at some point (BEFORE being born in Bethlehem). If the Psalm verse is to be taken as "the Christ is God's son", then at what point (in Heaven) did God create his son (the Christ) when the Christ was supposed to be with God from the beginning, and is supposed to BE God? It just seems like another attempt at man trying to understand by placing limiting human characteristics upon God just so they can have some way of understanding the unknowable. :-?
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Orion,
May God help you.
May God help you.
Gabbylittleangel said:
Thanks for your prayer. Now, I understand that the first part of my last post wasn't the best thing to say, and I'm not saying I actually believe it, . . the second paragraph, however, does need some dialogue. When did God create "his son"?
Or could the idea of "God's son" be an analogy (not literal) to point out the level of sacrifice that those "bible days" people could understand?