Under Grace not Under Law

[MCoop]

Well if you can insist on conditional security you can seek out the scripture that tell Christians Jesus did not come to save the righteous but the sinners. The well do not need a physician. The ill do.
It would be stark stupid for Jesus to come to save the sinners when he knew full well there were those who would be righteous in his sight once those called by the grace of God repented of their sins, REPENTED of their SINS and were forgiven by the God that would remember their sins no more, to then say he came to save the righteous after they repented because by golly they were still gonna be sinners and unrighteous.
Conditional security doctrine is Hell's spawn. Not Christ's covenant sealed by his blood. And that is why it is true. Those unrighteous will never see the kingdom of God.

Yes exactly correct. Conditional security denies the gospel altogether

 

[Jim Parker]

Scriptures twisted i

What scripture ha been "twisted" and what IYO is the proper understand of said scripture?

Those who are in Christ don't sin.

The beloved apostle, John, disagrees.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
John is writing to believers over whom he has oversight. ("My little children")
He is telling them not to despair if they sin but to trust in Jesus.

If a Christian were still a sinner, they'd still be dead in their sins

SO, in your view, the apostle John was still dead in his sins?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our (the word "our" includes John) sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
By using the our "our", the apostle John declares that he still sins and confesses.

It is bold balderdash for any doctrine to attempt to overcome what Christ died to deliver.

It is a failure to understand plain English to conclude that anyone is attempting to do as you so mistakenly claim.

how is it that that one he died for and redeemed remains as they were? A sinner who sins?

No one said they continued to be a sinner. A "sinner" is one whose manner of living is defined by sin.
A believer is one who, by God's grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, wrestles "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." which constantly strive to cause the believer to sin. (Eph 6:12)

You are conflating sin as a way of life with sin as a failure on the part of a born again believer.
They are not in any way the same.
And if you are under the impression that you do not sin, I suggest you consider:
1Jo 1:8-1q0 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
By using the word "we" John includes himself as someone who sins and needs to confess his sin and receive forgiveness.
Therefore, scripture, God's personal communication to you, refutes your view.

And in doing so, call Jesus Christ failed incompetence who died for nothing on the cross. Which is exactly what that lying doctrine that teaches Christians are still sinners who sin, is saying! Say back, anyone who encounters such a cult, GET BEHIND ME SATAN!

Rather, say "Get thee behind me Satan" to anyone who is preaching cheap grace.

“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

 

[Justicewolf]

Yes exactly correct. Conditional security denies the gospel altogether

It does. I don't know how it does so however, here among us and without being contained as it should.

 

[Justicewolf]

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God . . . .
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . .

God bless you! Speak the truth!

 

[Jim Parker]

So how am I bearing false witness.

I just told you.
And, as I see no point in repeating what you refuse to acknowledge, there is no point in continuing.
YOu don't want to know what you don't want to know.

Aufwiedersehen

 

[Jim Parker]

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And your point is?

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . .

And the same person also said:
1Jo 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Which passage is wrong?

 

[Papyrus_dust]

And your point is?

And the same person also said:
1Jo 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Which passage is wrong?

You are.
Where's the passage that says the redeemed in Christ are unrighteous?
You don't understand what John is teaching there when he's hoping to teach Christian converts to rebuke the false teachings that are attempting to persuade them away from the sound teachings of Christ.
Those dead in their sins confess their sins. And God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But if a sinner who is dead in those sins and is living unrighteous says they don't need the good news because they have no sins, then they make Christ a liar, when Christ came to save sinners not the righteous. And his word, which is the Word, that which calls the sinner to redemption, is not in that sinner.Is not calling that sinner to repentance.
That's what the actual passage is teaching.

To accept the false teaching that is being perpetrated in the false argument being refuted now is to accept those who are in Christ, and who have God's holy spirit within them, are unrighteous.
And we need to confess our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness. Which would mean God indwells the unrighteous. And when scriptures tell us God does not hear the prayers of sinners, John 9:31, how could anyone actually teach God indwells the unrighteous, sinners?

And that's not in scripture. At all. Anywhere.

 

[MCoop]

I just told you.
And, as I see no point in repeating what you refuse to acknowledge, there is no point in continuing.
YOu don't want to know what you don't want to know.

Aufwiedersehen

I certainly don’t want to hear works based salvation being promoted. All the while denying the gospel of Christ

 

[Jim Parker]

Where's the passage that says the redeemed in Christ are unrighteous?

I never suggested that the redeemed in Christ are unrighteous.

You don't understand what John is teaching there when he's hoping to teach Christian converts to rebuke the false teachings that are attempting to persuade them away from the sound teachings of Christ.

You apparently do not understand the meaning of the word, "we."

And that's not in scripture. At all. Anywhere.

Nothing you have posted is in scripture.
All you have done is recite the man-made traditions of your denomination and twist or ignore every scripture that contradicts your "other gospel."
Anyway, if you don't want the truth, then I won't annoy you with it.

Bye-bye.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I certainly don’t want to hear works based salvation being promoted. All the while denying the gospel of Christ

God blessed us M. with brother Eugene and his posting, Go and sin no more. A very important verse to combat such a thing in my view, and you'll see it in my signature as I was drawn by the Spirit to post there what brother Eugene shared in that discussion. 1 John 3:6 - NAS – No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Click that link behind 1John 3:6 for the full measure of the scriptures meaning.

I believe the conditional security and the works salvation falsehoods you're referring to can be overcome by the anointing of that truth of God that John gave to the world. Remember what God foretold in Matthew 16 and verses 11 and 12?
"How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

And in the Book of Acts chapter 20 and verses 28 to 30, Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

God's Word is a lamp unto our feet. His sacred and holy spirit indwells those who are in him , are in the anointing of the covenant his son sealed with his blood and gave to the world, and all the worlds people have to do from the moment Jesus drew his last breath on that last altar where all sin was taken upon the last sacrificial unblemished lamb, is to believe in the word given from the Word of Life itself. Written here by the grace of the Word of Life. And to live eternally saved, eternally alive rejoined with the spirit that gives life, is to simply believe. But first we have to believe we can be reborn out of this shell that is sinner clad in the image and likeness of the first Adam. That we're worthy of the sacrifice made for us by God himself in order to reunite us to himself.

And then repent of our sins with a sincere heart. Freely. Letting go of any care of what anyone may think if we do so in a church, in our own bedroom in private, on a plane because a member of the flock led us to the word of truth because they were in Christ already. Wherever it is that we are and feel God call us to him, heed that call. It is more pressing than the ring of a cell phone, the chime of a text message, or the call of our friends who want to go out to the bar and pick up guys.

That self that heeded those calls and sometimes felt horrible afterward and heavy with guilt for what they did can release it all. All that baggage of yesterdays. Of things we'd like to forget. And hope people forget what we did too. It can all evaporate in the blink of an eye that can sometimes be full of tears realizing this.

Don't believe that bumper sticker that says, "BORN OK THE FIRST TIME!" That's the Humanist dogma hoping to keep you there in your state of decay and worldly appetites. Love that you hate your life! Love that you hate your life?
No. Love that a precious man who was God in human form loved you enough over 2000 years ago and knew your name even then and so much so that he died for you! YOU! And every "You" that was and ever shall be born in the image and likeness of God, with the "suit" of the first Adam upon them.
What's that mean? Enamored with the world. Born and raised in any culture wherein you are taught what it means to get on there. To be there in that community, country, family. Which is why those babies that are baptized are so because their parents love them and want to protect them first thing. However, those babies are already in the arms of God because they are innocent and unaware of the difference between right and wrong. They'er not accountable for their actions as newborns because they're unaware of consequence.

If you precious reader who is not yet in Christ, saved, reborn anew from that old self who died the moment you accepted our Savior as your own and repented of your sins that are between you and God, that dear reader is when you were saved from this worlds wickedness. You are eternally with your father in Heaven. The source of your life and your salvation. Fear not death because when it comes you shall be with the father as he was with you while you walked this life.

OK, I'll stop preaching now. I was inspired because of the simple beauty and truth of 1John 3:6. And so moved by it that I wanted to bring hope, peace, and reiteration of the truth of God through Christ as that which is a simple fact of Salvation.
It isn't conditional. It isn't something you work for. Jesus did all the work to gift it to us when he suffered and then died on the cross. And in return all we have to do is be sincere of heart and believe!

Dear unsaved reader, if you are here among us, and you're confused because of finding teachings that seek to rebuke what others talk about when we speak of eternal salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. And that no matter what, every redeemed Christian is still a sinner who sins, remember this verse. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

And then seek ye the kingdom of God by first realizing , as our Lord Jesus said, it is in you! Awaken to that, repent, shrug off for all time the skin of the first Adam. And don instead the blessing that is Salvation and being IN Christ.
Here is a great starter link if you are unsaved , reading this, and are looking for a one-place-informs-all, information portal for how to be saved. LINKED

If you are not a Christian and this really lengthy holy spirit led post helped you, I am deeply honored. May God be praised.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I never suggested that the redeemed in Christ are unrighteous.

You apparently do not understand the meaning of the word, "we."

Nothing you have posted is in scripture.
All you have done is recite the man-made traditions of your denomination and twist or ignore every scripture that contradicts your "other gospel."
Anyway, if you don't want the truth, then I won't annoy you with it.

Bye-bye.

May you live forever.

 

[Jim Parker]

I certainly don’t want to hear works based salvation being promoted. All the while denying the gospel of Christ

Salvation is by grace alone. God doesn't have to save anyone and no one deserves to be saved.
Neither does anyone get saved by earning it through good works.
I have NEVER said anything different.

But, if anyone refuses to do the works for which God created him in Christ Jesus to make his manner of living, (Eph 2:10) then by that refusal that person denies Jesus as his Lord because he does not do what Jesus told him to do. (Luke 6:46)

And when that same resurrected individual stands before Christ at the judgment, whether he inherits the kingdom or gets sent to hell will depend on the works that he did.
That's what Jesus said. (Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51)
That's what Paul said. (Ro 2:6-10)
That's what James said. (Jas 2:24)
That's what Peter said. (1 Pe 1:17 )
That;s what John said. (1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13 )
NOT ONE of them said, just believe because good works are unnecessary.

You can say whatever you want.
I'll stick to what trustworthy witnesses to Christ told us.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever shall believeth in him shall not perish in their sins but shall have everlasting life.

1 John 3:6 - NAS – No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Papyrus Dust and MCoop, dirtfarmer here

Blessings to you and your families. Most don't understand the dying of the believer to self and having the life of Christ lived through you. If all our sins are under the blood, and they are( past present and future), then there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. I have explained before that the believer is called "saint". A saint is a person that was once under sin and it's condemnation but has been justified by the sacrifice of Christ. Justified mean :" just as if I had never sinned".

The sin that brings condemnation to any individual is the sin of unbelief at the time of physical death. It is my belief that at the great white throne judgment the degree of punishment meted out to the unbeliever will be according to the number of times that they have heard the gospel and rejected it, not the number of times they have committed sins.

The works of the believer are judged to determine rewards( stephanos) which will be cast at the feet of Jesus because he is worthy and did all the work. The works that were created in Jesus and accomplished by him are those works that we are to walk in, not do them, according to Ephesians 2:10

May God bless both of you for standing for the truth.
dirtfarmer

 

[Papyrus_dust]

It is a great blessing and makes my heart glad to know we do not stand alone. May God bless you and yours as well. And thank you.

 

[MCoop]

Salvation is by grace alone. God doesn't have to save anyone and no one deserves to be saved.
Neither does anyone get saved by earning it through good works.
I have NEVER said anything different.

But, if anyone refuses to do the works for which God created him in Christ Jesus to make his manner of living, (Eph 2:10) then by that refusal that person denies Jesus as his Lord because he does not do what Jesus told him to do. (Luke 6:46)

And when that same resurrected individual stands before Christ at the judgment, whether he inherits the kingdom or gets sent to hell will depend on the works that he did.
That's what Jesus said. (Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51)
That's what Paul said. (Ro 2:6-10)
That's what James said. (Jas 2:24)
That's what Peter said. (1 Pe 1:17 )
That;s what John said. (1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13 )
NOT ONE of them said, just believe because good works are unnecessary.

You can say whatever you want.
I'll stick to what trustworthy witnesses to Christ told us.

No one earns it through good works BUT whether he inherits the kingdom or sent to hell will depend on the works he did??? Ok what a contradiction... that is definitely a denial of salvation by grace alone. And no child of God “refuses” to do good works. The new life in Christ results in a life of righteousness. The problem is that “law keepers” do not understand the power of God that saves in Christ Jesus. Because they cannot see that their wretched guilty sinful self can only be justified by Christ and His righteousness alone. Justification comes through faith alone in Christ alone. All of grace conditioned solely in Christ alone apart from works. All the elect come to rest in this truth. Faith alone in Christ alone and that by Gods Sovereign grace alone

 

[MCoop]

hello Papyrus Dust and MCoop, dirtfarmer here

Blessings to you and your families. Most don't understand the dying of the believer to self and having the life of Christ lived through you. If all our sins are under the blood, and they are( past present and future), then there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. I have explained before that the believer is called "saint". A saint is a person that was once under sin and it's condemnation but has been justified by the sacrifice of Christ. Justified mean :" just as if I had never sinned".

The sin that brings condemnation to any individual is the sin of unbelief at the time of physical death. It is my belief that at the great white throne judgment the degree of punishment meted out to the unbeliever will be according to the number of times that they have heard the gospel and rejected it, not the number of times they have committed sins.

The works of the believer are judged to determine rewards( stephanos) which will be cast at the feet of Jesus because he is worthy and did all the work. The works that were created in Jesus and accomplished by him are those works that we are to walk in, not do them, according to Ephesians 2:10

May God bless both of you for standing for the truth.
dirtfarmer

Thank u for your kind words. May our Lord bless you as well

 

[Papyrus_dust]

No one earns it through good works BUT whether he inherits the kingdom or sent to hell will depend on the works he did??? Ok what a contradiction... that is definitely a denial of salvation by grace alone. And no child of God “refuses” to do good works. The new life in Christ results in a life of righteousness. The problem is that “law keepers” do not understand the power of God that saves in Christ Jesus. Because they cannot see that their wretched guilty sinful self can only be justified by Christ and His righteousness alone. Justification comes through faith alone in Christ alone. All of grace conditioned solely in Christ alone apart from works. All the elect come to rest in this truth. Faith alone in Christ alone and that by Gods Sovereign grace alone

Many of what are historically known as the formal principles of the Reformation and that we cherish are considered odious by those who would remain unsaved by the precious truth of our Savior.
Soli Deo gloria "glory to God alone"
Sola gratia "by grace alone"
Sola fide "by faith alone"
Solo Christo "through Christ alone"
Sola scriptura "by Scripture alone"

God our Father knows the evil and the good. Those who are his sheep and those who shall never be. Eternally knowledgeable, Omniscient, is he that he equivocates not when the Word gives his word as to the ways and means of finding our way to eternal salvation and life in Him. John 10:1-6
"Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice.Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

God calls his sheep and they know him. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them.” (John 10:27)

I believe verse 5 is why it is that those in Christ are so passionate when encountering wolves that would growl our name and seek to lead us from that eternal security we have in the flock of Christ.
We discern the truth and we cleave to it as if our soul nourishes itself on it. Because it does.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Yes exactly correct. Conditional security denies the gospel altogether

I wanted to say, AMEN! To this before another page appeared and it was lost on page 3. Prayerfully it will carry forth to page 4 so as to continue in its simple delivery of truth.

 

[MCoop]

Many of what are historically known as the formal principles of the Reformation and that we cherish are considered odious by those who would remain unsaved by the precious truth of our Savior.
Soli Deo gloria "glory to God alone"
Sola gratia "by grace alone"
Sola fide "by faith alone"
Solo Christo "through Christ alone"
Sola scriptura "by Scripture alone"

God our Father knows the evil and the good. Those who are his sheep and those who shall never be. Eternally knowledgeable, Omniscient, is he that he equivocates not when the Word gives his word as to the ways and means of finding our way to eternal salvation and life in Him. John 10:1-6
"Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice.Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

God calls his sheep and they know him. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them.” (John 10:27)

I believe verse 5 is why it is that those in Christ are so passionate when encountering wolves that would growl our name and seek to lead us from that eternal security we have in the flock of Christ.
We discern the truth and we cleave to it as if our soul nourishes itself on it. Because it does.

Yes to God Alone be the glory in Christ our Lord! Great post