What affect does sin have on our will?

[lovely]

Hello everyone,

I know that many say we have free-will, but I would like to discuss the affects of sin on man's will, if any, and if Adam's will was different prior to the fall? I have some thoughts on this, but I am actually always working on my views in this area...I am happy to hear what others think about the matter. I do not really want to get into the salvation aspect of this discussion if we can help it. I'd like to just deal with man's will and if it's free....and how that may be different for believers and unbelievers.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Lovely, Here are some scripture that supports free will.

Romans 2:6-16, To say that God saves some and sends the others to hell would mmake God a respector of persons, which the Bible declares He is not.

Malachi, Adam was given a choice in the Garden of Eden. The choice was to eat or not to eat the forbidden fruit. He chose to eat it, and anngels with flaming swords drove Adam and Eve out of the garden to live under the Genisis curse. If God left it up to Adam to choose in the beginning, then it is the same for every man today, for the Word declares, I am the Lord, I do not change.

1 Cor. 7:37, has power over his own will.

Matt. 16:24, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself ( free will), and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Isaiah 66:3, they have chosen their own ways.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Guest]

lovely - I have been willing myself to fly to work, and yet - I just can't seem to do it.

It appears, that I do not have wings - and although I will it - it just isn't happening. It seems that my will has physical limitations.

I believe that we have a will - but I do not believe it to be 'free'.

 

[francisdesales]

lovely - I have been willing myself to fly to work, and yet - I just can't seem to do it.

It appears, that I do not have wings - and although I will it - it just isn't happening. It seems that my will has physical limitations.

I believe that we have a will - but I do not believe it to be 'free'.

You seem to think that freedom is being able to do whatever we want. That is a false definition. Freedom is being able to do what we were MADE to do - to know God, love God, and serve God.

A creation is free if it is not inhibited from doing what it was created to do.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Here are my thoughts off the cuff:

1. Before the fall, Adam had free will and a certain "nature". By "nature" I mean that his "DNA" gave him certain propensities and inclinations. Of course I am not referring to "physical" DNA but am using this term as a metaphor for expressing the "inherent inclinations and tendencies" of a person.

2. Adam sinned freely.

3. Adam's "DNA" was changed and so was that of the rest of us. Humans are now born with "fallen DNA" - we have a propensity to sin. It is in our nature to sin. Must a fallen man unredeemed by Christ sin in every act he does? I think the answer is "no". Sometimes non-believers do genuinely good acts. But we are indeed inclined to sin. Humans do have some free will and need not sin, despite the propensity to sin.

4. We come to faith in Christ. Our "DNA" is partially restored to the pre-fall Adamic state. We are less inclined to sin. We still have free will but because our "DNA" has been partly fixed, we are more inclined to do good things simply because of our "new and improved" DNA.

5. We die and rest in our graves (couldn't resist a 'soul sleep' advertisement).

6. We are called forth and are transformed as per 1 Cor 15. The redemption is now complete. Our "DNA" is now perfected and we do good by our very nature.

So our present state is this: as Christians we have "improved DNA" that makes it "easier" for us to act rightly. A non-believer would have to use his free will to struggle against his "non-improved DNA" in order to not sin. But we all still have a degree of free will.

 

[Bubba]

This is our will prior to God taking the initiative and making us alive to that which is spiritual:

Ephesians 2:1-10 (New American Standard Bible)




Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing (S)riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Bubba]

Another example of our will prior to regeneration:

Romans 3:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)


11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";


Anywhere in Scripture, that tells us to seek, surrender, follow, obey etc is the Law, thankfully, out of God's freewill he chose Himself a people (Epesians 1:1-11).
Bubba

 

[jgredline]

Folks

Can someone provide a definition of ''Free will''

Is ''Free choice'' the same as ''free will'' ?

If they are different, how so?

 

[Bubba]

Romans 5:12-21 (New American Standard Bible)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because of Adam's freewill we are in bondage to sin, because of the 2nd Adam, our bondage to sin is broken, by regeneration, a new desire causes us to say yes to Jesus.
Bubba

 

[cyberjosh]

Lovely,

I honestly believe that repetetive sin on the believers part makes it harder for him or her to recieve grace as freely as before. Not to say it cannot be restored but its kind of like a gradual hardening or obliviousness to God's grace. I have experienced this personally, and it's finally when you get right with God again that you break down with tears and ask "God how did I get so far away, how did I not notice your grace?" During such times of hardening/straying I believe we fail to heed Paul's admonition to not recieve the grace of God in vain. So I think sin blunts grace's edge to help us because we have dumbed down how we use it or if we even use it at all. For example when the Bible says that God will supply a way out of every difficult situation, that is grace, but if you don't take it you have just recieved God's grace in vain and you have just distanced yourself a little bit from God's grace. You must then seek reconcilliation again with God and not backslide.

In my opinion,

~Josh

 

[stranger]

Folks

Can someone provide a definition of ''Free will''

Is ''Free choice'' the same as ''free will'' ?

If they are different, how so?

Hi jg,

A definition, here goes: 'Free will is new wine in new wineskins.'

 

[cyberjosh]

Freedom is being able to do what we were MADE to do - to know God, love God, and serve God.

Awesome definition!

Hi jg,

A definition, here goes: 'Free will is new wine in new wineskins.'

He he he. Nice.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17)?

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

Hello everyone,

I know that many say we have free-will, but I would like to discuss the affects of sin on man's will, if any, and if Adam's will was different prior to the fall? I have some thoughts on this, but I am actually always working on my views in this area...I am happy to hear what others think about the matter. I do not really want to get into the salvation aspect of this discussion if we can help it. I'd like to just deal with man's will and if it's free....and how that may be different for believers and unbelievers.

The Lord bless all of you.

No, free will is a secular belief. Man can only respond to his least stressful option which God already knows. If we could choose to get out of sin, then of course, we wouldn't need Christ. So people are either ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit which God planned as described in Romans 1:18-31, Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20, Romans 9:11-25, and 2 Corinthians 4:4.

 

[stranger]

He he he. Nice.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17)?

~Josh

Thanks, I'm sure that there are other definitions or illustrations that satisfy the reference you quoted.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello Heidi,

I generally like your arguements and agree with you, but here I must mention a few points in which I differ on this issue.

No, free will is a secular belief.

I don't believe that. I believe that God is sovereign and that he sets the bounds for what we all can and cannot do, but we operate ourselves according to our own will within those bounds. This does not however preclude the possibility of yeilding your life to God wilfully and allowing Him to work through you, handing control over to Him.

Man can only respond to his least stressful option which God already knows. If we could choose to get out of sin, then of course, we wouldn't need Christ.

That's an incorrect association/application though, because that is banking more on what alonevoice just said above about not having wings with which to fly. That was a physical limitation beyond his control, just as sin (even if we wanted to get out of it) would be out of our control to escape from if it weren't for Jesus. If it weren't for Jesus even the righteous saints of the OT would have been condemned and could not be aquited from their sins (for if you fail in one point of the law you have violated the whole law -James 2:10). And I have seen atheists & such who do desire to quit sinning but lack the means - and Jesus supplies the only means.

So people are either ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit which God planned as described in Romans 1:18-31, Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20, Romans 9:11-25, and 2 Corinthians 4:4.

That completely exempts the role of the flesh in our lives though (James 1:14), and if it weren't for our flesh we could take the Flip Wilson approach to sin each time and say "The Devil made me do it" and shovel the blame on him. People who subscribe wholesale (I doubt you do though) to the full implications of that theory ultimately adhere to the Christus Victor theology of Christ's atonement, which states that Jesus came only to set us free from Satan's grip - and it completely leaves out the issue of Jesus' substitutionary propitiation for our own sins done in our wicked flesh.

I hope you understand the stance I take.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

I believe that God is sovereign

Is God sovereign in the all mankind or only in the life of the believer?, those who are his?

 

[golfjack]

reply

God is soverign. He also has Foreknoledge. He knows and we don't know, as who is going to be saved or not.

I believe we as Christians have free will to choose. To think otherwise is ridiculous. You see, The will of man is in the soul, which is not saved yet because it needs to be renewed with the watering of the Word. We determine our destiny on this earth. There are many carnal Christians that are ignorant and sin at the drop of a hat, so to speak.

However, our recreated spirits are perfect in the sight of God. The problem we have as Christians is our thinking, which can lead to sins of the flesh. If we think we can fly, we can because we have free will to do so, but we may lose our life. In the same way, if we sin too much, our flesh may die prematurely. However we will be in heaven, but don't expect rewards or crowns. God has done all He is going to do about saving us in the New Birth. The rest is up to us. This is why we should make right choices.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone,

Interesting responses so far. I think I agree with everyone some.
I think Joe's definition is good and accurate. "A creation is free if it is not inhibited from doing what it was created to do."

Revelation 22
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I think in Heaven we will be 'free' to serve Him.

I also agree with Drew, I think...(except for the soul sleep) I think Adam had a free nature...according to Joe's definition...and then was tempted by satan, and willfully sinned having the free will not to. After that first sin, and then having the knowledge (experience) of good and evil placed upon his will, Adam was then bound by sin and separated by God. And as the verses that bubba quoted indicate, we are all born bound by it because of Adam. I think that is one reason that Christ was born free from sin, or had to be born of woman and not man, to avoid the seed of Adam and the sin nature. He did not receive the inheritance that Adam gave us, but came through Mary, and the Holy Spirit, to give us a new inheritance. (I am not saying that women are not sinful, btw.) So, we are no longer able to freely do what we were created to do...as Joe defined...because we are born of Adam. I agree with his definition, but I am aware that others may not. I also liked stranger's, btw.

Then, Christ died for us, and God has given us grace through our faith. WE are now born of God, and are able to take part in a new inheritance. In this framework, we are no longer bound by our sin (because of Christ's death in our place), but we are still bound to it in our flesh, for now, and we still sin...though not willfully as unbelievers, but in the flesh as believers. We are saved, and given the grace to obey...to yield our members to God. This is not something we do in the flesh, but self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. So, we are saved by grace, and we obey God by grace, but we are not going to be truly free (according to Joe's definition) until we are there in that city serving Him.

I also agree that Heidi is correct that we are either serving Satan, or Christ. We know that no one is good, except God, and the good that we do is still through Him...this even applies to unbelievers who do good things they have been taught, and reap the benefits of them in this world. However, only what is done for Christ will last for all eternity, and good done in an unbelieving state, or as a tare, will still reap condemnation ultimately because there is no grace. The believer, even if he only does one good work in Christ (as the thief on the cross did) will be rewarded for His good work, but will be pardoned by Christ because of His grace through our faith alone. This is why we can't boast.

Josh, I understand what you are saying about our sin hardening us toward God, and causing a distance in our relationship with Him. I also had several years of struggle in this area, and I felt it was justified, but I was really just in sin and needing to repent of my disobedience. I am still convinced that this was done in my flesh, and all that it encapsulates...my state of mind, my knowledge, my emotions, etc. all affected my response to God. The thing is, I was never comfortable there, and God used that time to ultimately deepen my relationship with Him. I am just now really beginning to understand holy fear and obedience. I think that that time that I am speaking of in my life could have caused me to be like those who take the seed in, but spring up only to be overcome by the thorns of this world, but I believe that God preserved me, and saved me from that path by His grace. I suppose we should start another thread to discuss this in depth.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Imagican]

Folks

Can someone provide a definition of ''Free will''

Is ''Free choice'' the same as ''free will'' ?

If they are different, how so?

Didn't finish reading all the posts but this IS pertinent to the topic. For our will IS our freedom. What God WISHES is that our will BE HIS WILL. He does NOT force us to follow ANYTHING.

Satan, on the other hand, DOES; through his demons, TAKE away the freedom that we have been offered and CAN destroy our ability to defend ourselves from the bonds that he offers.

Addiction, greed, lust, coveting, envy, etc.....All these can lead to a COMPLETE loss of freedom if so allowed. Bonds of negative behavior are extremely effective tools that Satan uses to UTTERLY destroy the will of some.

Freedom of choice is how we define our free will. We ARE FREE to CHOOSE who's will we will follow. Whether it be our OWN or that of God or Satan's. Unfortunately for us in the world we live in today EVERYWHERE we turn we are TAUGHT to follow OUR OWN WILL and MOST choose to follow it instead of the will of God. And RARELY is OUR OWN will untainted by Satan's influence UNLESS we remain IN THE SPIRIT.

So, your statement is VERY relevant in that free will and free choice ARE two distinctive perceptions. We HAVE been given the OPORTUNITY to have BOTH if we choose to. Sadly though, MOST are unaware of outside influences that can rob them of either.

MEC

 

[Heidi]

Hello Heidi,

I generally like your arguements and agree with you, but here I must mention a few points in which I differ on this issue.



That completely exempts the role of the flesh in our lives though (James 1:14), and if it weren't for our flesh we could take the Flip Wilson approach to sin each time and say "The Devil made me do it" and shovel the blame on him. People who subscribe wholesale (I doubt you do though) to the full implications of that theory ultimately adhere to the Christus Victor theology of Christ's atonement, which states that Jesus came only to set us free from Satan's grip - and it completely leaves out the issue of Jesus' substitutionary propitiation for our own sins done in our wicked flesh.

I hope you understand the stance I take.

God Bless,

~Josh

Actually that's not the case. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." Read Romans 7:13-25 to see that our flesh is a slave to sin and if we possess the Holy Spirit, our Spirit is a slave to the Holy Spirit. I, for one, would love to be perfect. So I don't sin because I want to but because sin is living in me, as Paul exlains in that passage. So no, we do not have free will. None of us is above the Holy Spirit or Satan and only the Holy Spirit has victory over Satan.