What affect does sin have on our will?

[Bubba]

I do not believe that Ephesians 2:1-9 really justifies the conclusion represented in the above post.

I believe that it is simply not correct to take phrases like "dead in trespasses and sin" and "dead in our transgression" and conclude that we are dead in the sense of not being able to "grasp the life line" as an act of free will. I suspect that to draw this conclusion, a person is assuming that the person is also dead "cognitively", and I see no reason to believe this.

This is not a simple matter of "dead means dead - how can a dead person respond freely to the call of God?". Paul describes us as being "dead in our sin". I think that this statement means either the following or both:

1. We are "dead" in a "death sentence to be carried out in the future" sense. We have sinned and the wages of sin is physical death. We are "dead men walking" - the sentence has been passed, but not yet carried out. But we are obviously still alive right now.

2. We are dead in that our sins make it impossible for us to participate in the new "life" in Christ. We are denied that renewed life - we are not rendered cognitively incapable.

Drew,
I believe Ephesians 2:1-9, is very clear that God is the reason one comes to faith, if words are to mean anything. How do you rationalize 1Corinthians 2:14?

1 Corinthians 2:14 (English Standard Version)


14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Bubba

 

[Bubba]

This post went completely ignored as well...

How about someone address these verses and show me how they take away mans will.....In particular explain away the highlighted verses....

Ok
Lets take a look at some simple scriptures....
2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

This verse illustrates the opposition of Israel to ''Christ's will''
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!....

2Peter 3:9 was written to the elect, see verse 1and 8, "beloved" (KJV).

Matthew 23:37, was talking about the Jewish religious leaders, "how often I wanted to gather your children together" and "but you were unwilling" (KJV).

Bubba

 

[Drew]

Drew,
I believe Ephesians 2:1-9, is very clear that God is the reason one comes to faith, if words are to mean anything.

Can you explain why we should believe that being "dead in sin" means we are cognitively dead to the point that we cannot understand our state and freely accept a gift of life from God?

How do you rationalize 1Corinthians 2:14?

1 Corinthians 2:14 (English Standard Version)


14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Do I understand the things of general relativity? No I do not. Can I discern the subtle truths of that theory? Again, no I cannot.

If Einstein had the ability to "download" his wisdom into my brain, could I recognize that and choose to accept that download?

Obviously, I can.

 

[Heidi]

I do not believe God wants to keep it that way at all...Infact through out scripture he says otherwise...Again lets look closer at 2 pet 3:9 and Josh I did notice we came to the same verse by our own free will :-D Just a little humor...Anyway lets take a closer look...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So here Clearly Gods will is clearly shown but we know that it is not accomplished...If Gods will were to be done according to this passage, then the universalism folk would be right...Now we know this is not the case because through out scripture we read that Hell is a real place of torment where real folk will go where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

The word not willing in the Greek is used as a term of desire...So it is translated correctly...It is Jesus desire that none should perish.....But some do...If man did not have a free will (desires) then indeed all men would be saved....But the bible shows otherwise...

Claiming that it's our own free will that makes us believe and become righteous contradicts;

Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 2:14,
Romans 3:9-19
Luke 10:22
Romans 7:18-25
Romans 8:20
2 Corinthians 4:4
Romans 9:16
John 15:16
John 6:44

And many, many more verses. And it also gives humans the credit for God's work in us. So it can't be a correct interpretation. So once again, one must reconcile all scripture together to come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture.

Also since Romans 9:16 says, "It does not therefore depend on man's own effort or desire, but on God's mercy", then our desire for God comes from the Holy Spirit, not our own free will. And since Romans 3:11 says; "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God," then that verifies that our desire for God comes from the Holy Spirit, not our own free will. Claiming it's from our own free will is called boasting.

And I didn't ignore your post. I answered it earlier.

 

[jgredline]

Claiming that it's our own free will that makes us believe and become righteous contradicts;

Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 2:14,
Romans 3:9-19
Luke 10:22
Romans 7:18-25
Romans 8:20
2 Corinthians 4:4
Romans 9:16
John 15:16
John 6:44

And many, many more verses. And it also gives humans the credit for God's work in us. So it can't be a correct interpretation. So once again, one must reconcile all scripture together to come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture.

Also since Romans 9:16 says, "It does not therefore depend on man's own effort or desire, but on God's mercy", then our desire for God comes from the Holy Spirit, not our own free will. Nad since Romans 3:11 says; "there is no one who understands, not one who seeks God," then that verifies that our desire for God comes from the Holy Spirit, not our own free will.

And I didn't ignore your post. I answered it earlier.

I can come up with just as many verses to refute those verses, but for the sake of my sanity, I am bailing out on this debate....

 

[Heidi]

I can come up with just as many verses to refute those verses, but for the sake of my sanity, I am bailing out on this debate....

Sorry but the bible doesn't contradict itself. So if you think that other verses refute the verses I quoted, then your interpretation contradicts the bible. Mine does not because I incorporated the verses you quoted with the verses I quoted.

So one more time, all the qualities in the verses you quoted come from the Holy Spirit inside the believer, not from man's innate righteousness or will because the bible says that no one is righteous, not even one, nor can the man without the Spirit believe the things that come from God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. That puts the verses you quoted together with the verses I quoted. To claim otherwise contradicts the verses I quoted which is impossible because scripture doesn't contradict itself.

 

[Guest]

Agree partially. I am now of the mind that Adam might not have fallen and that Jesus need not have died. I suggest that we are being told that God had a plan in case Adam did indeed fall.

HUH?

 

[jgredline]

Sorry but the bible doesn't contradict itself. So if you think that other verses refute the verses I quoted, then your interpretation contradicts the bible. Mine does not because I incorporated the verses you quoted with the verses I quoted.

So one more time, all the qualities in the verses you quoted come from the Holy Spirit inside the believer, not from man's innate righteousness or will because the bible says that no one is righteous, not even one, nor can the man without the Spirit believe the things that come from God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. That puts the verses you quoted together with the verses I quoted. To claim otherwise contradicts the verses I quoted which is impossible because scripture doesn't contradict itself.

Yes, heidi, you as always are right...Anyway, I am signing of this thread..Over the years I have learned to stay away from calvin vs armenian threads. I had enough of this stuff at masters.....This has been going on for centuries and certainly is not going to change here....I am out..

 

[Bubba]

Do I understand the things of general relativity? No I do not. Can I discern the subtle truths of that theory? Again, no I cannot.

If Einstein had the ability to "download" his wisdom into my brain, could I recognize that and choose to accept that download?

Obviously, I can.

If God downloads the understanding of Jesus in a mind that has been regenerated spiritually and you are now able to say yes, who did the work, God or Drew?
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride:
the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair.
... Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892), "All of Grace"

 

[Heidi]

Yes, heidi, you as always are right...Anyway, I am signing of this thread..Over the years I have learned to stay away from calvin vs armenian threads. I had enough of this stuff at masters.....This has been going on for centuries and certainly is not going to change here....I am out..

Of course it's not me who is always right, it's God's word that is always right. So the more we know and believe the word of God and pass it along, the more truth we pass along.

I have wanted to stay away also, but like you, at times, I think it's important for Christians to realize just who gets the credit for;

1) our faith
2) our salvation
3) our forgiveness
4) our redemption
6) Our love inside
7) our transformed hearts and minds
8) Knowing what the truth is
9) Being chosen

And it's not ourselves which comes from the sin of pride. It's God alone. So as Jesus says; "No one is good but God alone."

But I hope you're not leaving this forum. Your input is important because God's word never comes back empty. Thanks, Bubba.

 

[Guest]

Of course it's not me who is always right, it's God's word that is always right. So the more we know and believe the word of God and pass it along, the more truth we pass along.

I have wanted to stay away also, but like you, at times, I think it's important for Christians to realize just who gets the credit for;

1) our faith
2) our salvation
3) our forgiveness
4) our redemption
6) Our love inside
7) our transformed hearts and minds
8) Knowing what the truth is
9) Being chosen

And it's not ourselves which comes from the sin of pride. It's God alone. So as Jesus says; "No one is good but God alone."

But I hope you're not leaving this forum. Your input is important because God's word never comes back empty. Thanks, Bubba.

So - how do you reconclie Man's Responsibility?

Clearly we are responsible for our sins and not God - even though God knows all and is in control of all things.

 

[Heidi]

So - how do you reconclie Man's Responsibility?

Clearly we are responsible for our sins and not God - even though God knows all and is in control of all things.

Again, since none of us knows who is elected, every person is responsible for his actions, attitudes, and beliefs. Atheists, in particular, cannot blame God because they deny God exists. So they admit their actions come from only they themselves. So man's lack of knowledge about his election makes him accountable. ;-)

In addition, what comes out of us comes back to us like a river returning to its source. So whether or not our sins are intentional, or we can help ourselves, we are still guilty. Those who can admit that and ask for redemption will be saved. Those who can't still have to pay for their sins. : It's no different than a man breaking a law in another state where he doesn't know the laws. He will still be punished, but not as severaly as Jesus says in Luke 12:47-48. Those who have heard the word will be held to a higher account than those who haven't heard it.

 

[golfjack]

reply

This topic debate has been going on for centuries. If one would really think about it and ask God, the answer is simple. Perhaps, so simple, it is hard to understand, as this debate has been ongoing for about five hundred years.

Now, think about it. Does the bible contrdict itself? Do the words of Jesus contradict the words of Paul in the Epistles? Of course not. Jesus and His Diciples were Jews. Therefore, Jesus made statements according to Jewiish Law. For example, Jesus talked about Dicorce according to Jewish Law. Paul talked about divorce under the Law of Love. We must realize what the passage is addressing and who is being talked to. We must rightly divide the Word of God. Remember there was no church established during the Ministry of Jesus on earth.

In like manner, we must distinguish between who are God's chosen people and who are in the kingdom of God. The book of Romans tells us a lot. In fact, chapters 9-11 are set aside for the Jews for the most part. Most of the time when Paul addresses the brethern, he is talking to Jewish people as the elect becaause they are God's chosen. Are we God's chosen? I don't think so. Is the plan of Salvation predestined? Yes, of course. We see this in the book of Ephesians in chapters 1-3. Chapter one is the Fathers plan. Chapter 2 tells us that Jesus executed the plan. Chapter 3 tells that the Holy Spirit reveals the plan. So, how do we get into this plan? By doing what Romans 10:9-10 tells us. We are the ones that must believe with the heart and confess with our mouths that Jesus is our Savior and Lord. Folks, that is an act of the will. We either accept the plan or reject the plan. God is not going to do it for us. He can't because He will not overide our free will. Remember the Jews as far as being chosen had no free will, but they most certainly can be saved if they accept Christ. But Romans chapter 11 tells most of them have been blinded until the time of the gentiles have been fulfilled and that will be the remnant during the Tribulation.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Drew]

Agree partially. I am now of the mind that Adam might not have fallen and that Jesus need not have died. I suggest that we are being told that God had a plan in case Adam did indeed fall.

HUH?

I thought my statement might elicit such a response.

I assume that you take exception to my implication that God does not know everything about the future. Well, I think the Scriptures support this idea that God does not see the future as entirely settled. 2 King 20:1-7 is a classic example.

What is your specific objection to what I have written?

 

[Drew]

If God downloads the understanding of Jesus in a mind that has been regenerated spiritually and you are now able to say yes, who did the work, God or Drew?

This question presumes that we need to be regenerated spiritually in order to say "yes". What is your argument as to why man in his natural state cannot "see" the gift and accept it?

I believe that you are drawing a very questionable conclusion from texts like 1 Cor 2:14. I do not see this text as saying that a lost person cannot at least recognize the state that he is in and act freely to accept the gift.

I think the Einstein analogy still holds - I do not need to have my mind "regenerated to understand relativity" in order for me to at least recognize that I do not understand it and act to accept the "download" of wisdom about it.

 

[Free]

Open Theism Drew? The problem with any implication that God doesn't know everything about the future is that he could then never have perfectly planned the death and resurrection of Christ. He could never have been certain that it actually would have happened. The true is the same for his plans for our lives - they can be thwarted and changed so that the plans to prosper and not harm, to bring a hope and a future, may not actually come to pass.

This puts man and/or Satan in control and God merely reacts. Either everything happens according to God's will or it does not. If everything happens according to God's will, then he must know the future.

 

[Heidi]

Open Theism Drew? The problem with any implication that God doesn't know everything about the future is that he could then never have perfectly planned the death and resurrection of Christ. He could never have been certain that it actually would have happened. The true is the same for his plans for our lives - they can be thwarted and changed so that the plans to prosper and not harm, to bring a hope and a future, may not actually come to pass.

This puts man and/or Satan in control and God merely reacts. Either everything happens according to God's will or it does not. If everything happens according to God's will, then he must know the future.

Good post, Free. So many "Christians" think that God is in the dark about most things. : They couldn't be further from the truth. ;-)

 

[Bubba]

This question presumes that we need to be regenerated spiritually in order to say "yes". What is your argument as to why man in his natural state cannot "see" the gift and accept it?

I believe that you are drawing a very questionable conclusion from texts like 1 Cor 2:14. I do not see this text as saying that a lost person cannot at least recognize the state that he is in and act freely to accept the gift.

I think the Einstein analogy still holds - I do not need to have my mind "regenerated to understand relativity" in order for me to at least recognize that I do not understand it and act to accept the "download" of wisdom about it.

1st answer to your comment; because Scripture says a man can not come to Christ, because it is foolishness to him, unless the Spirit intercedes.

2nd answer to your comment: Scripture says no one seeks after God (Romans 3:11).

3rd answer to your comment: you might not need spiritual regeneration to understand "relativity", but you certainly do to know Jesus (Ephesians 2:1-9). Actually, for Einstein to understand what he did was also a gift from God (1Corinthians 4:7).

A comment from Bubba: You have a very small god Drew, if he isn't omniscient. Mine is a big, big God and He knows the beginning from the end, because Scripture says so and I believe it.

Grace Alone, Bubba

 

[Drew]

Open Theism Drew? The problem with any implication that God doesn't know everything about the future is that he could then never have perfectly planned the death and resurrection of Christ.

Why not? Why couldn't God have a plan that allows for both a "fall" (as indeed happened) or no fall (which of course did not happen). If you can tell me Scripture that proves (or even strongly implies) that Jesus' death was certain from the foundation of time, then please do so. I would pre-emptively suggests that texts like "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" do not accomplish this in my view. I would argue that such texts might have an unstated qualification and might really mean "the Lamb prepared to be sacrificed from the foundation of the world if Adam fell".

I would ask that readers consider how any counterarguments they provide to the effect that "ya gotta read 'em directly as they are written without 'adding' stuff" might be used against positions they hold dear such as "death = eternal conscious torment". Reading Romans 6:23 the way many do is as much an example of what I may be doing in respect to texts which do not explicitly state that Christ's death was not certain from the beginning of time.

He could never have been certain that it actually would have happened.

Agreed. At least until Adam fell, He would not have known for certain. How is that unscriptural, though?

The true is the same for his plans for our lives - they can be thwarted and changed so that the plans to prosper and not harm, to bring a hope and a future, may not actually come to pass.

This puts man and/or Satan in control and God merely reacts. Either everything happens according to God's will or it does not. If everything happens according to God's will, then he must know the future.

I do not think you are right in these assertions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asserting that God will accomplish all that He wants to accomplish even if He does not fully know the future. I hope to post arguments about this that I have posted in the past. For now, I will say this. If I play tennis (I suck at tennis) against the world's best player, the following things are true:

1. I will lose for sure (unless the guy drops dead or breaks a leg - and this is where the analogy to God is less than perfect - God cannot suffer this kind of setback);

2. The other player does not know everything I will do.

So we see that one need know the future fully to accomplish a certain goal.

Besides, Scriptures such as 2 King 20:1-7 prove that God does not know the future. We have debated this in the past here and I believe no successful argument was mounted against 2 Kings 20:1-7.