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Osgiliath
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Yes, preferably ALL subsequent ages, God willing. ;)
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Yes, preferably ALL subsequent ages, God willing. ;)
Actually I agree with you. There is no place called hell. There will be a fire that we refer to as hellfire that burns the entire earth, including the wicked and this is called the Lake of Fire, but it does not burn for all eternity and is not burning at present. It occurs after the second resurrection and is actually at the time of the third resurrection...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
couple this with...
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
and
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Now what comes just after 2 Pet 3:12?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
The fire has burned itself out and God is now making a new earth (as well as new heavens) by bringing His throne and the Holy City to earth.
Thanks for clarifying, I was not clear on what I meant there. What I really meant there is the effect fo hellfire, the lake of fire has eternal consequences but does not burn forever.
They are in the second resurrection...
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
There is more than one day of judgment, it has begun now on the church...
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
But is not on everyone at this moment as shown by the earlier statement concerning Sodom and Gomorrah.
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In the valley of Hinnom, Israel caused their children to be PASSED THROUGH THE FIRE as a burnt offering to a god who came to be known as Molech - a practice which God DETESTED.
This begs the question: If God detested such a practice, why would God do the very same thing Himself.....PASS HIS CHILDREN THROUGH THE FIRE.... and for ETERNITY?
who in the world is molech, god the father and whoever molech is are not the same. do you know who god the father of spirit is.
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Osgiliath
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Sinth, the Scriptures properly translated never promise ANYONE "eternal life," they do promise "age-lasting" life. The confusion comes from not understanding what allows those who are given "aionion life" to continue living even AFTER the aions (eons) are past.
It is not the promise from God of so-called "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY" (1 Corinthians 15:52-53). God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest (i.e. - the firstfruits), receive it ages aions (eons) IN ADVANCE of the rest (Revelation 20:4-6)
There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded; which is 'aiodios'. Paul uses the word once, in Romans 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting [aiodios] power and divinity of God." He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons (ages) which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed.
The original Scriptures do not contain the word "eternal" or its equivalent. No one can give you a "Scriptural definition" of eternity, because it doesn't exist. There are, however, explanations of such a phenomenon. God's abode is in Heaven -- which is decidedly NOT a geographical location in space. God is CHANGELESS. God did not exist from earliest TIME; God CREATED TIME ITSELF. God made the aions (eons) or ages of time (Hebrews 1:2). God existed BEFORE TIME [ages] (1 Corinthians 2:7). All ages of TIME will come to an end (Ephesians 2:7). But God and we will continue to exist outside of time ('athanasa' -- Immortality = Deathlessness, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54).
'True' Eternity is NOT "time and space without boundaries or limits and having NO BEGINNING (that eliminates 'time') and NO END (that eliminates 'time'). And who says that there will always be physical 'space'? After all, SPACE itself is a "physical" phenomenon, having nothing to do with the Spirit.
"Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom 'ages' BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. These are the FIRSTFRUITS, and they are the FIRST of the harvest, the "first sample" of the rest of the harvest which will follow. The FIRSTFRUITS are the only ones who participate in the FIRST RESURRECTION (Revelation 20:4-6). Only they receive "AIONION LIFE."
Most of Christendom thinks this is simply about "believers receiving eternal life." But Scripturally it has absolutely nothing to do with that concept whatsoever; it has to do with the 'firstfruits' receiving 'aionion life'. A study on the Three Harvests (feasts) will help in understanding this principle. They are the very "template" for God's Plan of the AGES.
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Osgiliath
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It is very helpful to know who Molech was, and where this ritual of "human sacrifice" by Israel took place. It took place in the valley of Hinnom - a.k.a. - Gehenna....incorrectly translated HELL 12 times in the NT.
"Gehenna" (erroneously translated HELL 12 times in the NT) is the Greek form of the Hebrew "ge-hinnom." It literally means "valley of Hinnom" Sometimes it is referred to as the "valley of the sons of Hinnom." In the Old Testament "Tophet" also refers to this place. "Gehenna" is a valley that lays on the west and southwest of Jerusalem.
In the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna - translated HELL), Judah (Southern Kingdom of Israel) caused their children to be PASSED THROUGH THE FIRE as a burnt offering to Molech - a practice which God DETESTED.
If God detested such a heinous act, why would He do the very same thing to the majority of humanity? In fact, it would be trillions of times more heinous, for people would be burned alive for eternity!
Here you go:
- Jeremiah 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing, to cause Judah to sin."
See that? This did not even enter God's mind (see above). However, according to the pagan doctrines of orthodox Christianity, this has obviously been on God's mind all along, because this is exactly what he does to all of His children who do not love Him.
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MOLECH IS A CULT, GOD THE FATHER/GOD THE SON/GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TRUTH!!!!
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and walking in sin your whole life and avoiding god's salvation is not psychopathic. hell exists because god hates sin!! you cannot enter heaven/holy land without being born of the holy spirit in this lifetime first!!
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and yet you have not answered my question also, what is the difference between a religious so-called christian and a born again prophet christian. you must have understanding of this question before we move any further.
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Vanguard
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Seeing how your definition will be subjective, why don't you just tell us what you think it means (I've never heard of such).
Beyond that...
totopicEdit: my goal here is not to get into an argument over personal opinions on "hell." The objective of this thread is to get people to research their Bibles, try and find where the BIBLE (not oral tradition) says you will "burn in hell if you are not saved," and discuss the verses presented or are questioned.
You'll find that a lot of my threads are designed to separate fact from fiction, truth from speculation, and to refute misinformation.
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Seeing how your definition will be subjective, why don't you just tell us what you think it means (I've never heard of such).
Beyond that...
a born again christian has obtained salvation of the holy spirit and his word through the drawing of god the father's grace, the word as in the bible that comes alive in a person's heart after salvation! salvation in this lifetime is obtained through the drawing of god the father's grace. in order to understand what salvation means read resurrection 1,2,3 here before you respond back please - http://www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/
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As soon as I saw that it was a CoC website, I stopped reading. No offense, but the CoC's views and interpretations differ greatly than my own. We will not be able to agree or come to terms. It is best that, if you wish to continue here, we stay on topic, pick a modern formal equivalent translation (I use the NASB extensively) and go from there. I will only discuss what is actually written in the Bible (and I do cross check with Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek). I asked for verses about hell...it is up to you (or whomever) to find and present them.
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Osgiliath
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Why do people reject Christ? Why does Israel reject their Messiah?
- Matthew 13:11 "Because…to them it is NOT GIVEN to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven."
Who blinds them to this vital knowledge?
- Romans 11:8: "Even as it is written, GOD GIVES THEM a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day."
[*]Romans 11:32: "For God has shut up ALL IN UNBELIEF so that He may show mercy to all."
[*]Romans 9:18- "Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening."
[*]2 Thessalonians 2:11 "...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Can anyone say "Jesus is Lord" on their own?
- 1 Corinthians 12:3: "NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT."
Is anyone even seeking God on their own?
- Romans 3:10-11: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God."
How does one seek God?
- John 6:44: "NO ONE is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."
And when He draws us to Him, is it OUR OWN FAITH that justifies us?
- Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
And being saved, is this "faith" something that WE muster OURSELVES?
- Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
If any of us have faith and commitment, they are GIFTS FROM GOD, and not something special that WE have. Most immature Christians believe faith and commitment are matters of human accomplishment that separate them from those less accomplished than they are. They think THEIR OWN commitment and faith are what separate them eternally from those no-good, faithless sinners who have neither. They are dangerously unaware of the source of their faith. I say dangerously because their ignorance and arrogance has filled them with pride. They need a good dose of:
- 1 Corinthians 4:7: "For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?"
So be careful urk. You are being fed the traditions of men - and they are spreading it on thick! :crazy You are eating soft, fluffy bread FILLED with the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees. Try the unleavened bread. I agree, it's an acquired taste, and it won't win you any friends (see John 15:18-21); but it will bring you spiritual health and abundant life.
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when they say church, they are referring to the body of christ! did christ not walk the earth with his teachings. i'm trying to get across to you that without salvation first in this lifetime, why throw out scriptures. do you not believe in salvation. we are both speaking of the same bible, but salvation is what separates people in scripture. salvation first, bible second. at least let me know what you disagree with in what they are saying in the resurrections, and i will respond. ttp://www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/
ok, then let's discuss Romans 10:9 & Romans 1:16
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NASB Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
What about it? There's no mention of hell, burning in hell, or anything related to hell. Of course that verse by itself is taken out of context. The context of that chapter is saying that everyone is equal, once they become saved. There is no race or religion that is greater than the other, so long as all come to God by way of Jesus. This verse is also why so many Orthodox Jews reject the notion of Jesus as the messiah, as well as the NT. They were told by God in the OT that they were the chosen ones. For Jesus to preach that all are equal is a slap in their face.
Edit: you added Romans 1:16 after I posted so let me address that.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Same principle as Romans 10:9. Look at it in context and it is stating that everyone is equal if they are saved. Again, no mention of hell.
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not equal as in skills, talents and gifts; equal as in their sins have been forgiven and the holy spirit and his word dwell inside of them!!
why is god loving you first before you loved him a slap in the face
you're acting like that's a bad thing, would you rather there be more wars! the salvation through god the father is love!!!!!
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Equal as in it won't just be the Israelites with God in Heaven. All who are saved will be there. That was Jesus' message and it is why they got so mad.
The rest of your post has nothing to do with the topic, not to mention you are reading too much into what I have said.
jesus, god the son died for us all, all of human kind!!! he loves us as in everybody, not just certain people..but people have free will to deny his salvation.
Matthew 11:28 says ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest