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"Burning in Hell"

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Anyone else have any verses they want to discuss, and whether or not they refer to "burning in hell" (or just hell in general)?
 
Why do people reject Christ? Why does Israel reject their Messiah?


  • Matthew 13:11 "Because…to them it is NOT GIVEN to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven."




Who blinds them to this vital knowledge?


  • Romans 11:8: "Even as it is written, GOD GIVES THEM a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day."
  • Romans 11:32: "For God has shut up ALL IN UNBELIEF so that He may show mercy to all."
  • Romans 9:18- "Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening."
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."



Can anyone say "Jesus is Lord" on their own?


  • 1 Corinthians 12:3: "NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT."



Is anyone even seeking God on their own?


  • Romans 3:10-11: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God."



How does one seek God?


  • John 6:44: "NO ONE is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."



And when He draws us to Him, is it OUR OWN FAITH that justifies us?


  • Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."



And being saved, is this "faith" something that WE muster OURSELVES?


  • Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."



If any of us have faith and commitment, they are GIFTS FROM GOD, and not something special that WE have. Most immature Christians believe faith and commitment are matters of human accomplishment that separate them from those less accomplished than they are. They think THEIR OWN commitment and faith are what separate them eternally from those no-good, faithless sinners who have neither. They are dangerously unaware of the source of their faith. I say dangerously because their ignorance and arrogance has filled them with pride. They need a good dose of:


  • 1 Corinthians 4:7: "For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?"



So be careful urk. You are being fed the traditions of men - and they are spreading it on thick! :crazy You are eating soft, fluffy bread FILLED with the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees. Try the unleavened bread. I agree, it's an acquired taste, and it won't win you any friends (see John 15:18-21); but it will bring you spiritual health and abundant life.

21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 'I will heap disasters on them; I will spend My arrows on them. 24 They shall be wasted with hunger, Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction; I will also send against them the teeth of beasts, With the poison of serpents of the dust. Deuteronomy 32:21-24

... burn to the lowest hell

No Mystery hear - Hell is hot and down low.


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.Matthew 5:22

shall be in danger of hell fire.

No parable or mystery, just straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ - There is fire in hell!



And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Matthew 10:28


...destroy both soul and body in hell.


And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.


...to be cast into hell fire.


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- Mark 9:43


...to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.


Maybe you think you have some "new" revelation or understanding that you learned about hell. If it involves teaching people to disregard what Jesus teaches about Hell and eternal damnation, then I would counsel you to reconsider.

to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

All the "Greek" words and new understanding won't change the fact that Hell burns with a fire that will never be quenched.

People that refuse the gift of Salvation that God's Son paid for them on the cross, go into hell fire and burn!


JLB
 
Deuteronomy 32:21-24 21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 'I will heap disasters on them; I will spend My arrows on them. 24 They shall be wasted with hunger, Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction; I will also send against them the teeth of beasts, With the poison of serpents of the dust.

Try using a modern, formal translation such as the NASB, that has cleaned up the language and has greater accuracy. No mention of hell.

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


Again, it is in reference to Gehenna, not hell. Gehenna does not equal hell.

As a matter of fact, the rest of your examples do as well. Jesus is talking about the second coming, and Gehenna, in every single one of those verses.





 
yes seriously, salvation, sin and hell are all connected. this isn't just a thread to throw out scriptures about hell. hell is a real place, do you see the irony.
 
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Try using a modern, formal translation such as the NASB, that has cleaned up the language and has greater accuracy. No mention of hell.

[/COLOR]

Again, it is in reference to Gehenna, not hell. Gehenna does not equal hell.

As a matter of fact, the rest of your examples do as well. Jesus is talking about the second coming, and Gehenna, in every single one of those verses.


You can use any "translation" or any Lexicon gymnastics you want.

Nothing will change the truth of Jesus Christ.

Hell is where people go who don't go to heaven!

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.Matthew 5:22

shall be in danger of hell fire.

No parable or mystery, just straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ - There is fire in hell!



And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Matthew 10:28


...destroy both soul and body in hell.


And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.


...to be cast into hell fire.


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- Mark 9:43


...to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

[edited by staff]


JLB
 
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Osgiliath, what does Romans 10:9 and salvation have to do with hell.
 
As with most of my apologetics/theology posts, I wanted to talk about something controversial. It is in these types of threads where we really get down to the nitty gritty of religion. I also find that these type of threads can yield some of the best results as far as understanding religion. These topics are not meant to confuse, chastise or anger anyone, but rather allow us to explore the Bible in-depth, with the hopes that we gain some knowledge or understanding. To that end...



"Burning in Hell"

Where did the idea come from? When did it start? What is it based off of? Let's explore these questions and the topic...

For starters, the Bible does not mention "hell" in the literal sense that we think of it today. Here's where we need a little history lesson. The Hebrew word "sheol" simply means "the grave." The Greek translates this as "hades" and it also refers to "realm of the dead [grave]." However, this is largely based off Greek mythology, as Hades is also the name of the Greek god who rules the underworld.

The actual word "hell" comes from a variety of sources, the most prevalent being the Old English word "helle" (circa early 8th century AD). It also refers to the "land of the dead." The idea of eternal torment of souls or a lake of fire for sinners, well, that stems more from legend, not Scripture. Let me explain.

By the end of the 2nd century AD, early Christians started blending Greek philosophy with the rising popularity of Christian philosophy. The Greeks learned early on that you needed to have control over the population. The best way to go about this is to instill fear of the gods and death if you "dishonored the gods." If you control the hearts and minds, you have power over people. These early Christians were influenced in that part of the world by numerous cultures, including the Greeks.

The idea of hell grew not from divine revelations, but from varied cultural philosophies. It was a system of control. Priests, regardless of time or culture, have held a lot of power.

As a matter of fact, in Orthodox Judaism, you won't find any mention of the idea of hell. No where in the OT does it speak of it. Sheol (the grave), yes. Hell, no.

Fast forward to the end of the Dark Ages.

Note: at this juncture I am not trash talking the RCC. I am only going from a historical standpoint that further demonstrates the topic of this thread.

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was dominant in Europe. The church wielded a lot of power and influence. Their Bible (the Latin Vulgate) was unreadable to most for two main reasons:

1. Farmers, smiths, craftsmen, etc. were mostly illiterate.
2. The Latin Vulgate was written in...Latin. The peasants couldn't read it, even if they were literate in their native languages.

The RCC literally told people what to believe, how to worship, how to pray, etc. The Pope and the RCC had A LOT of power back then. Many of the clergymen entered the church for an easy, rich, comfortable living. The historic accounts of corruption are numerous (they are not the only "church" to have corruption). There was also this popular idea of doing things in God's name, as false as they may be.

Banking on old Greek philosophies, clergymen used the threat of "burning in hell for your sins" as a massive control mechanism. They literally kept people in fear of sin and death. All a priest had to do was accuse someone of being ungodly and their execution was all but assured. It's no wonder some of the Old World priests/bishops/cardinals were also among the wealthiest people around. Back then, they cashed in on people's fears.

Out of this "hell fire" era rose the stories, legends and folklore surrounding the idea of hell. One method of execution back then was to be burned at the stake. People knew it was painful and grotesque. What they didn't understand back then was biology and anatomy (as we do today). We know that pain comes from sensations in your nerve receptors that send signals to your brain. Since your nerves and brain stay behind when you die, there's no evidence of "feeling the fire" after death. It is a physical sensation, in the literal sense. The idea of burning in fire eternally was a MASSIVE control mechanism.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is pure historical fact.




Now, let's take a step back and study what the Bible does say.

There are numerous verses that indicate "hell" but none come out and say it. They are implied, but also taken out of context in order to support the idea of hell. As we stated earlier, the Hebrew does not speak of a hell. That is a Christian concept based off centuries of philosophy and control.

Someone may throw the term "Gehenna" out there. Jesus did speak of it 11 times, but He was referring to being absent of the Kingdom of Heaven after the second coming. What happened is that over the ages, people started substituting the idea of "Hell" for "Gehenna." This is done erroneously.

Now, as a Christian I grew up on the KJV and was taught all about hell, sin, eternal torment, etc. I do believe in God, Jesus and Heaven, but hell is a different story. The more I research and learn, the more I am convinced that traditional Christian teachings "have it wrong" in some areas. It's almost as if they are going on tradition rather than Scripture. Feel free to disagree.

Here is my challenge: if you find a verse in the Bible that you think says or refers to "hell," bring it up and we'll discuss it objectively and within context.


Here's something to consider.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)

Jesus spoke of the worm not dying and the fire not quenched when speaking of Gehenna.
 
Here's something to consider.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)

Jesus spoke of the worm not dying and the fire not quenched when speaking of Gehenna.

Anything in the OT, you can't refer to hell or Satan (as the devil) in the Christian interpretation. It is vital to understand that the Hebrews did not believe in a hell (sheol does not mean hell), nor do they see Satan as the devil. This is covered in another thread.

Once again, the OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written in Hebrew, by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. Why would they talk about things that their religion does not consider doctrinal? That would be like me explaining how to clean a shotgun, but I start talking about what my favorite hunting knife is (completely unrelated).

Aside from that, the verses you quoted speak of the "Joy of Jerusalem's future" and their rise to dominance once again. Those who rebelled against God and opposed the Hebrews will be put to death. Has nothing to do with hell (especially since they don't believe in it).

It's all about the context!
 
Right about now (and it is happening on another website too) you might be thinking, "well crap, you keep harping on CONTEXT, which means we can't say anything about the Bible because you'll throw that in our face and shoot it down (or something to that effect)."

The simple answer: yes.

The longer answer: if people keep taking verses out of context and liberally apply them to whatever, then yes I will call them out on it.

It is not an insult, it is not picking on you, it is not belittling you, or anything along those lines. Christians, including pastors/priests, need to start getting in the habit of studying their Bible in context, knowing what the verses actually mean and refer to, and learning how to adapt them to life without butchering their intended interpretations. It's not that hard. It does require you to set aside some...falsely...interpreted philosophies you may cling to, but in the end you'll be far more accurate, you'll gain knowledge and understanding, and if anything it will bring you closer to God.

The question is, how much effort do YOU want to put into it?

:topictotopic
 
Originally Posted by urk,

but people have free will to deny his salvation.

Free-will is an unbiblical concept conceived by Jacobus Arminius (Arminianism = most of orthodox Christianity today), who rejected Calvin's predestination teaching of pure grace. Arminius believed salvation was available to everyone—if they exercised their free wills and took it (i.e - salvation by "works"). In other words, they relieved God of responsibility for His creation.

The Calvinist and the Arminian viewpoint have one common point: a belief in eternal torment. However, the clever Arminians ducked this horror by making God not liable for sending folks to orthodox hell. The answer: Free will. Free will is one of the easiest heresies to disprove from Scripture—but it doesn't matter. Arminians who believe in eternal torment are in the embarrassing position of having to stare sovereignty-of-God verses straight in the face and deny them. I witness the phenomenon daily in this very forum. But at least, unlike Calvinists, they resist a God who damns people on purpose. Calvinists; such warm, delicate souls, simply recite their "Oh well!" sermon every Sunday and go home.
 
Free-will is an unbiblical concept...

Free will is one of the easiest heresies to disprove from Scripture—but it doesn't matter.

This is where Osgiliath and I differ. I sincerely believe in free will, but my belief is not based on anything written in the Bible. My belief comes from my own opinion that God would not allow bad things to happen to good people, especially those who believe in Him (regardless of religion). Since bad things do happen to good people, my rationale is that free will allows people to make choices. We, as humans, choose to do something good or bad. In short, bad things happen because someone made a choice to do something bad, and God does not interfere with free will. Again, not based on Scripture, just my own philosophy on this ONE subject.

Regardless, I respect everyone's opinion on free will.

:topictotopic
 
This is where Osgiliath and I differ. I sincerely believe in free will, but my belief is not based on anything written in the Bible. My belief comes from my own opinion that God would not allow bad things to happen to good people, especially those who believe in Him (regardless of religion). Since bad things do happen to good people, my rationale is that free will allows people to make choices. We, as humans, choose to do something good or bad. In short, bad things happen because someone made a choice to do something bad, and God does not interfere with free will. Again, not based on Scripture, just my own philosophy on this ONE subject.

Regardless, I respect everyone's opinion on free will.

:topictotopic

Well, if free will is your own personal belief, I certainly respect that. But it is certainly NOT a Biblical concept (and as you stated, you don't deem it to be so.) I don't debate someone's 'own' thoughts and convictions. My arguments come only when someone claims the Scriptures say something they don't.

Biblically speaking, God's total sovereignty in ALL things is repeatedly stated countless times. Calvinism of course has polluted the truth of God's sovereignty to exalt their sect over those they see as non-elect.

But I certainly respect your own personal convictions, which are between you and God alone. :thumbsup
 
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Alright Vanguard, Osgiliath,

Where do really terrible people like, say, Hitler, the person who invented boy bands and Judas go after they die?
 
but in the end you'll be far more accurate, you'll gain knowledge and understanding, and if anything it will bring you closer to God.

how can you bring yourself closer to god when you refuse to take the first step to salvation. the ironic part of this whole thread is that the person that made a thread about hell avoids how to obtain salvation that keeps him out of hell. i learned something today from Vanguard, people are going to believe what they believe regardless of how many scriptures or websites you throw at them. Vanguard, just think about what i said, i'm done here - urk
 
Alright Vanguard, Osgiliath,

Where do really terrible people like, say, Hitler, the person who invented boy bands and Judas go after they die?

:biglol :biglol :biglol


The person who invented boy bands :lol
 
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Vanguard
The problem with you is you are using the wrong version of the Bible. That version is not accurate as you claim it to be. It is an evil version. That is why you are not able to see the truth about hell. That is the idea of these versions.

I would like all of you reading this to know that this is what happens to anybody who does not use the KJV. They simply cannot see the truth.

Now Vanguard I want you to answer some questions, because you seem to blame people of taking verses out of context and misinterpreting them and not giving any explanations at all.
So answer these questions.

  • In many places in the Bible for example Matt 18:9 Jesus talks about hell fire. Could you explain to us what this place is?
  • In many places in the Bible for example Matt 25:41 Jesus talks about this hell fire being everlasting.
    Note: The Greek word used there is "aionios (ai-o'-nee-os)" which means perpetual, continual, eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). So explain to us what Jesus means when He tells us that the Hell fire is everlasting?
 
Anything in the OT, you can't refer to hell or Satan (as the devil) in the Christian interpretation. It is vital to understand that the Hebrews did not believe in a hell (sheol does not mean hell), nor do they see Satan as the devil. This is covered in another thread.

Once again, the OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written in Hebrew, by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. Why would they talk about things that their religion does not consider doctrinal? That would be like me explaining how to clean a shotgun, but I start talking about what my favorite hunting knife is (completely unrelated).

Aside from that, the verses you quoted speak of the "Joy of Jerusalem's future" and their rise to dominance once again. Those who rebelled against God and opposed the Hebrews will be put to death. Has nothing to do with hell (especially since they don't believe in it).

It's all about the context!


I'm not quite sure what you're getting at regarding hell. I posted the passage in regard to Gehenna. I believe it's clear that Gehenna will exist outside of the New Jerusalem. Jesus talks about people going to Gehenna in the future, he says of Gehenna, their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. This is the same thing Isaiah said of those who transgressed against God.
 

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