How to handle the apparently misogynistic passages such as 1 Timothy 2:8-15?

[journeyman]

Carry_Your_Name
what is your reaction to what I'm saying? You've asked questions and posted scripture but I have no idea what you're thinking.
Is anything I'm saying making sense to you? I'm just wondering, because I'm wandering around different threads and it seems like people making confident claims sound like they haven't even read the Bible. I'm not making a joke. I'm being completely serious.
Jesus said every idle word that meant speak against them they will give a counter in the day of judgment.
Many people who attend Bible colleges, congregations, theological discussion forums online, etc. are going to be in serious trouble, judgment day.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Carry_Your_Name
what is your reaction to what I'm saying? You've asked questions and posted scripture but I have no idea what you're thinking.
Is anything I'm saying making sense to you? I'm just wondering, because I'm wandering around different threads and it seems like people making confident claims sound like they haven't even read the Bible. I'm not making a joke. I'm being completely serious.
Jesus said every idle word that meant speak against them they will give a counter in the day of judgment.
Many people who attend Bible colleges, congregations, theological discussion forums online, etc. are going to be in serious trouble, judgment day.

My reaction is a little skeptical to your spiritualization of these passages. This is the kind of interpretation that denies the physical return of Christ and promotes replacement theology, it only draws allegorical value from the Scripture and totally ignores the literal meaning and the historical backdrop, which raises a red flag. If church is meant to be the Bride and the last Eve, then ALL members of the church, both men and women, are of one body. To outsiders, men alone in the church don't represent Christ, BOTH men and women represent Christ, a woman who lives by the word of God and follow the Holy Spirit represent Christ more than a man who fail to live by the word of God and follow the Holy Spirit; no husband, deacon, pastor, biship or pope is the head of the Church, Christ in heaven is the head of His Church. Over the recent decades, women are more involved than men in church activities, more brave women speak out and take initiative than men do, that totally flies in the face of these instructions from the passages, that's why I asked about it.

 

[eddif]

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the saints. 1Cor.14:29-33

Do you understand that if anyone in church stood up and said "Thus saith the Lord", any church member who differed in opinion could speak in turn, so that the Holy Spirit in them should agree. Yes?

I would say all the real prophets are speaking. Even then they are checking to make sure the truth is being spoken by an individual prophet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[journeyman]

My reaction is a little skeptical to your spiritualization of these passages.

So was mine at first.

This is the kind of interpretation that denies the physical return of Christ and promotes replacement theology,

No it doesn't. It's the kind of interpretation which agrees with Christ returning for his people, that is anyone on earth who believes the gospel.

it only draws allegorical value from the Scripture and totally ignores the literal meaning and the historical backdrop, which raises a red flag.

No friend. It means,

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom.1:16

i've read that passage thousands of times and not until this morning understood that Paul is saying this Gospel I am preaching to you gentiles was first preached to my people, the Jewish people and whoever believes this will be saved,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb.4:2

he's speaking of the people who heard Moses. He isn't saying the "Jews will go first." He means, "The Jewsish people heard this first and now I'm telling you Gentiles also."

If church is meant to be the Bride and the last Eve, then ALL members of the church, both men and women, are of one body.

Yes, perfect.

To outsiders, men alone in the church don't represent Christ,

I agree. I said that Paul wanted women to cover their head ,

the head of the woman is the man 1Cor.11:3

He means your husbands are imperfect, but they represent Christ our Lord, so don't expose them to ridicule. Don't go to your girlfriends house and say, "Mr Christian is always talking about Jesus, but do you know what he did today? Blah blah blah blah blah.

Are you reading my posts, my responses to you at all? I said this in post #5.

BOTH men and women represent Christ, a woman who lives by the word of God and follow the Holy Spirit represent Christ more than a man who fail to live by the word of God and follow the Holy Spirit; no husband, deacon, pastor, biship or pope is the head of the Church, Christ in heaven is the head of His Church. Over the recent decades, women are more involved than men in church activities, more brave women speak out and take initiative than men do, that totally flies in the face of these instructions from the passages, that's why I asked about it.

I said this in post #5.

 

[journeyman]

I would say all the real prophets are speaking. Even then they are checking to make sure the truth is being spoken by an individual prophet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

eddif
Every Christian should be able to agree on at least this,
The old covenant testifies of Jesus. Jesus testified to the verasity of the entire Old Testament and 11 of His apostles, so to the truth of the entire New Testament also.

Look at the disagreements within this church right here right now. Where salvation is concerned, that's a very serious problem unless people really aren't serious about their faith.

No one here today is at fault for this. Nobody at CF bears any blame for what we were taught, because the people who decided what we would be taught are long dead and we know nothing personally about them. We never met them.

There's a disagreement about where we love you are going after death and we're trusting men we never met. Think about that. I was raised Catholic, then joined the Baptist and then between belonged to a cult called "The Church of Bible Understanding" (or COBU for short.)

I would seriously suggest doing a study by yourself at home without any preconceived ideas about what the Bible says. Simply use your own intelligence to understand what a sentence is saying or a paragraph or a chapter. I did that. I'm not an idiot. I can really read. I think people should really try that. And seriously pray.

 

[journeyman]

The order of that first century church is gone forever. There's a pope or a pastor or deacon board or an elect body of who knows who.
I would seriously read the Bible for myself. and get a Strongs concordance. They are not perfect but they're very good. They use both Christian and secular ancient sources to support their definitions. I also like the KJV best, but even that was altered from the original text and one very unfortunate place, because it shows Messiah would be worshipped by angels.

 

[eddif]

I would say all the real prophets are speaking. Even then they are checking to make sure the truth is being spoken by an individual prophet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

My statement above is about the scripture passage, and not about the group here on this thread.

eddif

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree. I said that Paul wanted women to cover their head ,

the head of the woman is the man 1Cor.11:3

He means your husbands are imperfect, but they represent Christ our Lord, so don't expose them to ridicule. Don't go to your girlfriends house and say, "Mr Christian is always talking about Jesus, but do you know what he did today? Blah blah blah blah blah.

Are you reading my posts, my responses to you at all? I said this in post #5.

I appreciate your input, man. My objection is not to your message, but to your messaging, for I sensed a bit of "preachiness" in the tone of your posts. One valuable lesson I've learnt about communication is connection before correction. You don't jump right in and dump your stuff on top of your listener, you make conversation, relate to them, detoxify their minds first, then you present your argument that man and woman therein symbolize Christ and His church.

1 Tim. 2:8-15, along with other verses I quoted, are greatly consequential in church culture and western culture. The thing is, there're two extreme views based on a literal reading of these instructions. The conservative view is known as complementarianism, that men and women are made to complement each other, woman is the "missing half" of man and vice versa; men are ordained as leaders, providers and protecters, women as helpers, carers and comforters, and following 1 Tim. 2:12 and 1 Cor. 13:34, women must unconditionally sumbit to men's authority, and even in case of sexual abuse or other misconduct, they're dismissed and told to keep their mouth shut. The liberal view is extreme feminism, it goes for the polar opposite of every point in 1 Tim. 2:8-15 - dress provocatively; profess demonic works; make as loud of a noise as you can, challenge "oppressive patriarchy", vie for leadership positions in all kinds of institutions, including the church; and advocate for abortion, lose control and follow your own feelings. Simply put, it's a vengeful rebellion against complementarianism.

I'm telling you these because this is the culture Kool Aid and the default impression of your listener, there's a false dichotomy of either "strict gender roles" or "no gender roles at all". You see what the problem is? Christ as the head is totally missing. I raised this question at the end of my OP, that I don't see Christ as the head, all I can see is my husband, my pastor, my boss exalt themselves as the head. This is the spiritual blindfold must be removed first, these two extreme views must be debunked, otherwise nothing you say makes any sense.

 

[journeyman]

I appreciate your input, man. My objection is not to your message, but to your messaging, for I sensed a bit of "preachiness" in the tone of your posts.

I know it sounds that way, but I don't mean it that way. i'm not a pulpit pounder brother. I'm very concerned about what I see happening in church everywhere, whether locally or online..

One valuable lesson I've learnt about communication is connection before correction. You don't jump right in and dump your stuff on top of your listener, you make conversation, relate to them, detoxify their minds first, then you present your argument that man and woman therein symbolize Christ and His church.

eddif,
Thats what I've been trying to do. I'm telling folks about my personal life and asking them what their experiences have been.
Brother I never sidestep scripture another Christian post to me. I answer it because I can and not because of anything I made up.
I've learned a lot just from the abilities God has given me to understand language, to be able to know what words mean by looking them up and to respond with my that understanding which was given to eveyone of us here.by God to begin as he has for everyone here. And for things we don't understand we can all ask in prayer and if God wants us to know something at a particular time he will give us that understanding. I fully agree with what you're saying eddif.

1 Tim. 2:8-15, along with other verses I quoted, are greatly consequential in church culture and western culture. The thing is, there're two extreme views based on a literal reading of these instructions. The conservative view is known as complementarianism, that men and women are made to complement each other, woman is the "missing half" of man and vice versa; men are ordained as leaders, providers and protecters, women as helpers, carers and comforters, and following 1 Tim. 2:12 and 1 Cor. 13:34, women must unconditionally sumbit to men's authority, and even in case of sexual abuse or other misconduct, they're dismissed and told to keep their mouth shut. The liberal view is extreme feminism, it goes for the polar opposite of every point in 1 Tim. 2:8-15 - dress provocatively; profess demonic works; make as loud of a noise as you can, challenge "oppressive patriarchy", vie for leadership positions in all kinds of institutions, including the church; and advocate for abortion, lose control and follow your own feelings. Simply put, it's a vengeful rebellion against complementarianism.

I'm telling you these because this is the culture Kool Aid and the default impression of your listener, there's a false dichotomy of either "strict gender roles" or "no gender roles at all". You see what the problem is? Christ as the head is totally missing. I raised this question at the end of my OP, that I don't see Christ as the head, all I can see is my husband, my pastor, my boss exalt themselves as the head. This is the spiritual blindfold must be removed first, these two extreme views must be debunked, otherwise nothing you say makes any sense.

Somehow comminication between us seems to getting garbled, because I fully agree with everything you just said.

Look at any commentary on this passage,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:27-28

 

[journeyman]

Carry_Your_Name
Commentaries neglet to consider that "He has put all things under his feet" has a double meaning. One applies to the 1st Adam and one to the 2nd Adam.

With that knowledge, what two things could Paul mean? One interpretation is right and one is wrong. What he's really saying eddif?

 

[journeyman]

Carry_Your_Name
Please disregard the "eddif" in my posts. I was thinking of him but typing to you... sorry.

 

[journeyman]

My statement above is about the scripture passage, and not about the group here on this thread.

eddif

My posts are about the scripture passages as well, but also how they affect the entire church, which includes the CF church here.

 

[journeyman]

I make tons of typos. I'm going to have to proof read what I'm posting with a fine toothed comb before I hit the post button.
I think God is telling me I should do that to begin with.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thats what I've been trying to do. I'm telling folks about my personal life and asking them what their experiences have been.
Brother I never sidestep scripture another Christian post to me. I answer it because I can and not because of anything I made up.
I've learned a lot just from the abilities God has given me to understand language, to be able to know what words mean by looking them up and to respond with my that understanding which was given to eveyone of us here.by God to begin as he has for everyone here. And for things we don't understand we can all ask in prayer and if God wants us to know something at a particular time he will give us that understanding. I fully agree with what you're saying eddif.

Yeah, I'm concerned as well. It's disheartening to realize that everything has gone south after 2020, nothing is the same. Those instructions are taken out of context to validate the "oppressive patriarchy" propaganda, and this extreme feminist view I mentioned has crept into the church, some are using adulterated versions of the bible where these harsh passages are made less "offensive". No wonder so many young adults claim they are "spiritual but not religious", translation, they have faith in Christ but no faith in church.

 

[eddif]

Galatians 3:28 kjv
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[journeyman]

Yeah, I'm concerned as well. It's disheartening to realize that everything has gone south after 2020, nothing is the same. Those instructions are taken out of context to validate the "oppressive patriarchy" propaganda, and this extreme feminist view I mentioned has crept into the church, some are using adulterated versions of the bible where these harsh passages are made less "offensive". No wonder so many young adults claim they are "spiritual but not religious", translation, they have faith in Christ but no faith in church.

Things went south when ancient rabbis developed beliefs which led to murdering the Messiah. They were waiting for a Messiah who would defeat there mortal enemies.
They had no idea their King would conquer death for all mankind without lifting a finger to defend himsel,

I will be thy King. Where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Giveme a king and princes? Hos.13:10

God is the speaker here. Israel asked for that type of king back in Samuel. They wanted a king like the other nations, one they could see visibly.
Hos.13:10 can easily be seen as God saying he will be their Messiah.

Paul is the most misunderstood writer in scripture. his teachings on husbands and wives conduct has nothing to do with men being superior to women spiritually or mentally. Paul was speaking of Christ and the church, our Lord being superior to all men and women who are the church. He says this right in the passage if people read it correctly.
Isaiah 53 is the most beautiful expression of God's love given to man bar none and by bastardizing Paul's writings theologians have turned it into utter heresy.
It really makes me wonder how such revered men good tell lies about God.

 

[journeyman]

like getting a divorce. Jesus said the only reason you can get divorced is because of adultery. That's why my cousin stayed with a husband that abused her in front of their children. She left with the kids after he put a gun to her head.

 

[journeyman]

Galatians 3:28 kjv
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Lmho! "Is Paul a sexist?" You ended this debate in one shot!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Things went south when ancient rabbis developed beliefs which led to murdering the Messiah. They were waiting for a Messiah who would defeat there mortal enemies.
They had no idea their King would conquer death for all mankind without lifting a finger to defend himsel,

They were not wrong. The term "messiah" was NOT a unique title for Jesus, in hebrew it simply means "anointed one", similar to "crowned one" or "inaugurated one", any Israelite king or high priest, even foreign king could be a messiah. It only evolved into such a unqiue title for this savior and liberator of Israel after the Babylonian exile. And not just the rabbis, it was the common understanding among all Jewish people at the time, including Jesus's own disciples. What they missed is that there are two comings of the Messiah, first time as the son of Joseph, second time as the son of David. This had been a valid teaching in Judaism, but somehow it was lost and forgotten. Till this day they're still expecting their liberator, that's where the Antichrist will fill in. This is the mindset of the "earth dwellers" in Revelation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul is the most misunderstood writer in scripture. his teachings on husbands and wives conduct has nothing to do with men being superior to women spiritually or mentally. Paul was speaking of Christ and the church, our Lord being superior to all men and women who are the church. He says this right in the passage if people read it correctly.
Isaiah 53 is the most beautiful expression of God's love given to man bar none and by bastardizing Paul's writings theologians have turned it into utter heresy.
It really makes me wonder how such revered men good tell lies about God.

Yeah, I have to admit that Pauline epistles are the least understood and studied section for me, I've prioritized the sections of books by the same order they're arranged in the bible - Torah, prophets, gospels, Romans, and other epistles last.