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How to handle the apparently misogynistic passages such as 1 Timothy 2:8-15?

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They were not wrong. The term "messiah" was NOT a unique title for Jesus, in hebrew it simply means "anointed one", similar to "crowned one" or "inaugurated one", any Israelite king or high priest, even foreign king could be a messiah. It only evolved into such a unqiue title for this savior and liberator of Israel after the Babylonian exile. And not just the rabbis, it was the common understanding among all Jewish people at the time, including Jesus's own disciples. What they missed is that there are two comings of the Messiah, first time as the son of Joseph, second time as the son of David. This had been a valid teaching in Judaism, but somehow it was lost and forgotten. Till this day they're still expecting their liberator, that's where the Antichrist will fill in. This is the mindset of the "earth dwellers" in Revelation.
I don't know how you can make a statement like that. The most ancient source of Rabbinic Judaism, the Talmud is regarded by orthodox Jews as equal to the Bible itself.
Also the NT says,

This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward. They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you.
1Pet.1:10-11-12

Look at what Peter says in Acts about "The One" Moses wrote about. This isn't just because rabbis after their captivity in Babylon dreamt up the idea of one king would bring peace to the world.
I don't know if there is any rabbinic literature prior to the Babylonian captivity but if there is it isn't going to disagree with the oral law because the Talmud is the best rabbinic minds in Judaism and they agree with The Messiah above all other anointed kings and priests. Reformed or Liberal Judaism me teach that, but not Orthodox Judaism.

I have read very little of the Talmud. It's massive. It's of some value to a follower of Jesus. For instance when Jesus said,

And he said unto them, What man shall there be of you, that shall have one sheep, and if this fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man of more value than a sheep! Wherefore it is lawful to do good on the sabbath day.Mt.12:11-12

Jesus wasn't scolding them. He was incredulous at their complaint that he healed on the Sabbath because they're on oral tradition allowed for that. It just hadn't been written down until a few hundred years later,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mt.15:2

That's the rabbis oral tradition. Ceremonial washing's are also recorded in the Talmud, but the point is, these men new full well that aiding an injured person on the Sabbath was permissable and it was like that before the captivity and still is today.

I'll tell you one book in the Bible that may have been regarded at one time as prophecy and reading it anyone could see that it is a prophetic book, is Daniel.

Next to Moses and Isaiah, Jeremiah is the next greatest prophet of the Jews. Daniel understood the time of the Messiahs arrival by the writings of Jeremiah (Dan.9:2), but Daniel isn't regarded as a prophet in Judaism. Don't you think that's odd? I wonder why?
 
Yeah, I have to admit that Pauline epistles are the least understood and studied section for me, I've prioritized the sections of books by the same order they're arranged in the bible - Torah, prophets, gospels, Romans, and other epistles last.
Don't forget the Writings... Daniel and David who wrote the psalms which speak more plainly of Jesus in a personal sense than anything in the Bible prior to the New Testament except for Isaiah 53.

I don't think Christians today understand how faith in Jesus literally exploded in Israel after the Holy Spirit was poured out on Jesus' followers. his movement didn't die out because of Jewish persecution against them. Yes, some higher ranked Pharisees did persecute the followers of Jesus, but it's apoarent they were the greedy ones in with the temple priests that wanted to stamp out Christs' church.
The money changers at the temple or violating the law of Moses (Exo.22:25.)
That's why Jesus overturn the tables.
 
I don't know how you can make a statement like that. The most ancient source of Rabbinic Judaism, the Talmud is regarded by orthodox Jews as equal to the Bible itself.
Also the NT says,

This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward. They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you.
1Pet.1:10-11-12

Look at what Peter says in Acts about "The One" Moses wrote about. This isn't just because rabbis after their captivity in Babylon dreamt up the idea of one king would bring peace to the world.
I don't know if there is any rabbinic literature prior to the Babylonian captivity but if there is it isn't going to disagree with the oral law because the Talmud is the best rabbinic minds in Judaism and they agree with The Messiah above all other anointed kings and priests. Reformed or Liberal Judaism me teach that, but not Orthodox Judaism.

I have read very little of the Talmud. It's massive. It's of some value to a follower of Jesus. For instance when Jesus said,

And he said unto them, What man shall there be of you, that shall have one sheep, and if this fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man of more value than a sheep! Wherefore it is lawful to do good on the sabbath day.Mt.12:11-12

Jesus wasn't scolding them. He was incredulous at their complaint that he healed on the Sabbath because they're on oral tradition allowed for that. It just hadn't been written down until a few hundred years later,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mt.15:2

That's the rabbis oral tradition. Ceremonial washing's are also recorded in the Talmud, but the point is, these men new full well that aiding an injured person on the Sabbath was permissable and it was like that before the captivity and still is today.

I'll tell you one book in the Bible that may have been regarded at one time as prophecy and reading it anyone could see that it is a prophetic book, is Daniel.

Next to Moses and Isaiah, Jeremiah is the next greatest prophet of the Jews. Daniel understood the time of the Messiahs arrival by the writings of Jeremiah (Dan.9:2), but Daniel isn't regarded as a prophet in Judaism. Don't you think that's odd? I wonder why?
I don't know about any rabbinic literature before the second temple, but this view is their interpretation of the 70 week prophecy in which the messiah would be cut off (Dan. 9:26). When we read it we immediately connect it to Jesus, but not them. They thought this was about the Macabee revolt, a Jewish high priest restored the temple which Antiochus defiled, hence the Feast of Dedication, something like that. This shows they're putting their hope on a human hero, a king or a priest, and it should come as no surprise - they had their first annointed king, Saul, due to popular demand, even though prophet Samuel was agaisnt it.
 
Where does Paul gives this instruction?


Where in the NT does it say that anyone was permitted to speak? Is there a certain way in which they were permitted to speak?
Free Hidden In Him
6 different people have spoken in this thread.

I wonder if we should mention The 24 Elders their period of times and their understanding.

Of course our understanding in seeing the truth.



Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
I don't know about any rabbinic literature before the second temple, but this view is their interpretation of the 70 week prophecy in which the messiah would be cut off (Dan. 9:26). When we read it we immediately connect it to Jesus, but not them. They thought this was about the Macabee revolt, a Jewish high priest restored the temple which Antiochus defiled, hence the Feast of Dedication, something like that. This shows they're putting their hope on a human hero, a king or a priest, and it should come as no surprise - they had their first annointed king, Saul, due to popular demand, even though prophet Samuel was agaisnt it.
The Jewish people did think Judah Maccabeus could be the Messiah. they thought the Messiah would be an ordinary man who would have children and turn leader ship over to a son after his death, but the Maccabees reign ended, so they knew the Messiah was yet to come.

Add to this how Judaism has always believed in the afterlife with a resurrection from the dead, but how that works with who's going to run the country of Israel forever on this earth causes a paradox.

It's like when the religious leaders asked Jesus about a woman who was married to brothers who died in succession, "Who will be her husband at the resurrection?"
 
1 Timothy 2:8-15 (NKJV) reads:

I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

There're many challenging and controversial passages in the bible, this one is at the top of the list as it was written in such strong language against women and thus it had earned a bad reputation for the whole church for being misogunistic.

The passage isn't against women; it's for the spiritual authority God has invested in men that is given to them for the spiritual protection and health of women and the Church entire. In 1 Timothy 2:8-15, Paul doesn't prohibit women from teaching in the Church completely, only from teaching men as a spiritual authority over them, which is to say, in the capacity of an Elder/Pastor/Bishop. I have benefited many times and deeply from the spiritual insight of godly women. But none of these women shared their insight from the role of an Elder/Pastor/Bishop over me; and it wasn't necessary to being either insightful or impactful spiritually that they were occupying the role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop.

On face value, it bars women from church leadership with no wiggle room, on top of that it also restricts women with a repressive dress code and affirms the traditional gender roles, that men are born as leaders, women are mere "helpers" for house chores and childrearing.

??? This is a "Strawman" of what Paul actually wrote, a cartoonish, contorted version of his apostolic commands. He didn't bar women from leadership in the Church, only from the role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop that would put them in spiritual authority over men.

And the only restriction Paul put on women's attire is that it be modest, which is to say, not vain and showy. Should he have encouraged women to dress immodestly, to dress in a manner that encouraged and communicated vanity? Do you think he taught something different for men; that they could dress immodestly when women couldn't? Nothing in anything that he wrote in the NT even hints at such a double-standard. So, why are you fussing about a standard of modesty for women's attire? How would an immodest dress code comport with Christ's own teaching to us all to be humble, self-denying and holy?

Where does Paul indicate that men are "born leaders" and women "mere helpers"? He wrote neither of these things in his letter to Timothy. Men often tend toward passivity, many of them preferring to be led rather to lead. Perhaps this is, in part, why God insists that they lead spiritually. And what does it mean to be a "mere helper"? Women were leaders in the Early Church, given mention as such in the NT, though they also birthed children and tended to matters of homemaking. These things aren't mutually-exclusive.

The worst part is the reference from Gen. 2 and 3 as a theological reasoning for this instruction, that women are not only physically inferior, as Eve was created second from Adam, but also intelletually inferior, as Eve was gullible and deceived while Adam was not, despite the fact that Adam was held accountable by God for the fall, and today women vastly outnumber men in college, in some places it's as high as two women per man.

Again, you're distorting what Paul actually wrote, assigning meaning to his words they don't actually contain. Eve was deceived before Adam was, as Paul indicated, encouraging her husband into sin, but this doesn't mean she was intellectually inferior to Adam, or more gullible. Paul draws neither of these conclusions, stating only that Eve being deceived first disqualifies women from having spiritual authority over men.

This section is not an isolated case, there're many similar instructions in Paul's letters that corroborate this message with a negative image of women that are hurtful to take in:

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. (1 Cor. 11:3)
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
And besides they (younger widows, applicable to modern single women) learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. (1 Tim. 5:13-14)
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (Eph. 5:22-24. Timothy was in charge of the Ephesian church at the time).

These are only "hurtful" passages of Scripture if you've taken up a modern, misanthropic second or third-wave feminism and through it assess what Paul wrote. Such feminism prompts you to massage Paul's words into anti-woman rhetoric, jumping to conclusions about his thinking that are unwarranted - as your remarks above illustrate.

In any case, anyone who comes to God's word proposing to be its inspector and judge misunderstands profoundly what God's word really is. Until you allow God's word to inspect and judge you, reading it will be pretty useless.

This makes me wonder if we have a flawed understanding of the principle "Sola Scriptura". It's never supposed to indicate that "the bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it". We need external sources about the the cultural and historic context to get a grip on Paul's true intention with these passages.

All you're doing here is making room for secular, cultural ideas that you've embraced but that the Bible condemns. Essentially, you're doing the "Has God really said?" thing, like the devil did with Eve in Eden and with Christ during his forty days in the wilderness. But doing so necessarily diminishes and weakens God's word in your thinking, contorting it to take the shape you want it to have rather than dealing with it as it is: the objective, universally-authoritative word of GOD. This attitude toward Scripture creates fertile ground for self-deception and error, for compromise with the World, which is why the devil is so keen to have us attack the Bible's authority, to doubt God's word.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
No Free,
I agree completely with you that the work of salvation from beginning to end is by grace alone offered by God alone.
What I disagree with is how that grace is offered by God and how God Himself expects it to be received by sinners.

I am very busy tonight my friend and it will take me a few days to find posts by those who I have spoken to on this website proving they believe children are born without any consciousness of God from birth and unless God choose an individual for no understandable earthly reason, God just simply created such a person to destroy them.

I hope you understand that the "fairy dust" comment was my own sarcasm over my frustration without write heresy. We'll just call it an "unseen pull" by God upon man that can't before against.

I will repost your response and answer every question you have asked in a biblically logical manner.
THIS IS TOO OFF-TOPIC.

PLEASE REPLY TO Free on a different/new thread if you wish to continue this discussion.
Thanks
 
The Jewish people did think Judah Maccabeus could be the Messiah. they thought the Messiah would be an ordinary man who would have children and turn leader ship over to a son after his death, but the Maccabees reign ended, so they knew the Messiah was yet to come.
This is why I said their idea of the Messiah slowly "evolved" over time. When Eve had Cain, he, the first human being naturally conceived and born, was thought to be the messiah who would crush the devil's head (Gen. 3:16), "the man acquired from God" is the same as messiah. That shows Eve's faithfulness in God's promise, not her folly.
 
The passage isn't against women; it's for the spiritual authority God has invested in men that is given to them for the spiritual protection and health of women and the Church entire. In 1 Timothy 2:8-15, Paul doesn't prohibit women from teaching in the Church completely, only from teaching men as a spiritual authority over them, which is to say, in the capacity of an Elder/Pastor/Bishop. I have benefited many times and deeply from the spiritual insight of godly women. But none of these women shared their insight from the role of an Elder/Pastor/Bishop over me; and it wasn't necessary to being either insightful or impactful spiritually that they were occupying the role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop.
Well there's a reason for that. Human brain has two halves, the left half processes information, the right half processes emotions. I don't know about other people, but as for me, when I hear a man speaks, my left half lights up, I focus on his message and reasoning through his words; even when I'm listening to some music by a male artist, I primarily focus on the lyrics; but when I hear a woman speaks, especially when she's emotionally charged, my right half lights up while my left shuts down, I stop thinking and start feeling. This is not absolutely a bad thing, though, I believe this is how we let go and surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit, but if this is another spirit, such as the spirit of Jezebel as in the case of the Thyatira church - the name literally means reign of a goddess, then I'd be led astray.
 
??? This is a "Strawman" of what Paul actually wrote, a cartoonish, contorted version of his apostolic commands. He didn't bar women from leadership in the Church, only from the role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop that would put them in spiritual authority over men.

And the only restriction Paul put on women's attire is that it be modest, which is to say, not vain and showy. Should he have encouraged women to dress immodestly, to dress in a manner that encouraged and communicated vanity? Do you think he taught something different for men; that they could dress immodestly when women couldn't? Nothing in anything that he wrote in the NT even hints at such a double-standard. So, why are you fussing about a standard of modesty for women's attire? How would an immodest dress code comport with Christ's own teaching to us all to be humble, self-denying and holy?

Where does Paul indicate that men are "born leaders" and women "mere helpers"? He wrote neither of these things in his letter to Timothy. Men often tend toward passivity, many of them preferring to be led rather to lead. Perhaps this is, in part, why God insists that they lead spiritually. And what does it mean to be a "mere helper"? Women were leaders in the Early Church, given mention as such in the NT, though they also birthed children and tended to matters of homemaking. These things aren't mutually-exclusive.
I explained this in post #28 about complementarianism and second wave feminism. Neither is in the bible, but both are the status quo in the church we have to confront with. Man and woman being "leader" and "helper" is a literal reading of Adam and Eve's roles in the garden, in most old translations the Hebrew word ezer is rendered as "helper". Unfortunately, this title in English comes with a negative connotation of inferiority, it's synonymous with "assistant", "servant", "supporter". God himself is often described as ezer, as in the common name Eliezer - God is my help, wherein God is our rescuer, deliverer, restorer. Neverthelss, the stereotype of "helper" is established, it brings forth complementarianism, which often further leads to abuse of power, since "power corrupts, absolute power absolutely corrupts." This view has gained new momentum as retaliation against the onslaught of the demonic transgender movement.

You can ignore all of these and bury your head in the Scripture, but the devil doesn't ignore you, he doesn't leave you alone, this is a unique challenge in our time which we must confront.
Again, you're distorting what Paul actually wrote, assigning meaning to his words they don't actually contain. Eve was deceived before Adam was, as Paul indicated, encouraging her husband into sin, but this doesn't mean she was intellectually inferior to Adam, or more gullible. Paul draws neither of these conclusions, stating only that Eve being deceived first disqualifies women from having spiritual authority over men.
I didn't distort it, Saint Auguistine did. That had always been the traditional Catholic teaching, it went so far that it turned Eve from an ally into a sudductress and sex from a blessing into a curse, till this day "taste the forbidden fruit" is a euphemism of first time sex instead of disobedience to God. It has totally distorted our view of human sexuality, I intended to discuss this with you in the other thread, but you kept evading it.
These are only "hurtful" passages of Scripture if you've taken up a modern, misanthropic second or third-wave feminism and through it assess what Paul wrote. Such feminism prompts you to massage Paul's words into anti-woman rhetoric, jumping to conclusions about his thinking that are unwarranted - as your remarks above illustrate.

In any case, anyone who comes to God's word proposing to be its inspector and judge misunderstands profoundly what God's word really is. Until you allow God's word to inspect and judge you, reading it will be pretty useless.
All you're doing here is making room for secular, cultural ideas that you've embraced but that the Bible condemns. Essentially, you're doing the "Has God really said?" thing, like the devil did with Eve in Eden and with Christ during his forty days in the wilderness. But doing so necessarily diminishes and weakens God's word in your thinking, contorting it to take the shape you want it to have rather than dealing with it as it is: the objective, universally-authoritative word of GOD. This attitude toward Scripture creates fertile ground for self-deception and error, for compromise with the World, which is why the devil is so keen to have us attack the Bible's authority, to doubt God's word.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This I highly disagree. Yes, the bible does condemn the cultural narrative, but the bible doesn't ignores it, it doesn't pretend no other cultural narrative exists, and it certainly doesn't forbid or discourage us from reading secular sources. It presents salvation, not an escape like other religions do. If you believe that God has authority over all heavens and earth, then nothing is "secular", everything is sacred. In fact, many key portions in the bible are polemic in nature, they were written to precisely counter a certain cultural narrative. The word of God is sufficient and authoritative, but WE are NOT sufficient or authoritative, WE need guidance sent from God, this much is clearly indicated by the word of God itself:

And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. (Deuteronomy 6:6-7)

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. (Acts 8:30-31)
 
??? This is a "Strawman" of what Paul actually wrote, a cartoonish, contorted version of his apostolic commands. He didn't bar women from leadership in the Church, only from the role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop that would put them in spiritual authority over men.

And the only restriction Paul put on women's attire is that it be modest, which is to say, not vain and showy. Should he have encouraged women to dress immodestly, to dress in a manner that encouraged and communicated vanity? Do you think he taught something different for men; that they could dress immodestly when women couldn't? Nothing in anything that he wrote in the NT even hints at such a double-standard. So, why are you fussing about a standard of modesty for women's attire? How would an immodest dress code comport with Christ's own teaching to us all to be humble, self-denying and holy?

Where does Paul indicate that men are "born leaders" and women "mere helpers"? He wrote neither of these things in his letter to Timothy. Men often tend toward passivity, many of them preferring to be led rather to lead. Perhaps this is, in part, why God insists that they lead spiritually. And what does it mean to be a "mere helper"? Women were leaders in the Early Church, given mention as such in the NT, though they also birthed children and tended to matters of homemaking. These things aren't mutually-exclusive.
A side note, you should read to the end of my OP where I made similar arguments like these. I never said you should be a fundemantalist and stick only to the face value of these passages. If you know that the issue of vanity and status was an issue in the Ephesus church, and you acknowledge that women were leaders in the early church, then you clearly have read and studied some extrabiblical materials about the historical background.
 
Galatians 3:28 kjv
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
This is a polemic as well against this traditional Jewish prayer: "Thank you, God, that I am not a Gentile, a woman, or a slave!"
 
THIS IS TOO OFF-TOPIC.

PLEASE REPLY TO Free on a different/new thread if you wish to continue this discussion.
Thanks
Ok. I think we should continue this in the Calvanism section. if that's ok. I won't have to start a new thread. I"ll continue one that clearly shows how TULIP is founded on misunderstanding of the scriptures and in particular Pauls" letters.
 
This is why I said their idea of the Messiah slowly "evolved" over time. When Eve had Cain, he, the first human being naturally conceived and born, was thought to be the messiah who would crush the devil's head (Gen. 3:16), "the man acquired from God" is the same as messiah. That shows Eve's faithfulness in God's promise, not her folly.
That's fine. You've given me your reasons without scriptural referrence. I've given you my reasons using what Peter and other biblical writers said.
I once did a study on how rabbis viewed the Messiah. I used the oldest rabbinic sources I could find. What I found were things like this,

And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, [b{And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb.1:6[/b]

He's quotng the OT, but you'll never find this using the KJV because it was altered by someone who knew it was connected to Jesus.

I'm done with this rabbit hole.
 
Free
Do I have your permission to copy post #52 and move it to the Calvanism section?
Since were talking about Calvinist doctrine, I will use an existing thread that will continue the continuity of the OP.
 
That's fine. You've given me your reasons without scriptural referrence. I've given you my reasons using what Peter and other biblical writers said.
I once did a study on how rabbis viewed the Messiah. I used the oldest rabbinic sources I could find. What I found were things like this,

And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, [b{And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb.1:6[/b]

He's quotng the OT, but you'll never find this using the KJV because it was altered by someone who knew it was connected to Jesus.

I'm done with this rabbit hole.
Yes, it’s a quote from Deut. 32:43, this quote can only be found in the Septuigent and Dead Sea Scrolls. Most Bible translations are based on Maseretic text, which is the authoritative but not authentic, lots of places are edited. That’s all I gotta say, I’m done with this rabbit hole as well.
 
Ok. I think we should continue this in the Calvanism section. if that's ok. I won't have to start a new thread. I"ll continue one that clearly shows how TULIP is founded on misunderstanding of the scriptures and in particular Pauls" letters.
Well if you do the move to the safe zone, take care. If any one wants my opinion of TULIP, you can just do PMs with me.

You can even make the title fit if you go esoteric about the bride.


Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Well if you do the move to the safe zone, take care. If any one wants my opinion of TULIP, you can just do PMs with me.

You can even make the title fit if you go esoteric about the bride.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
redneck,
@ wondering told me to move it so I'm just moving it to the Calvanism section because it's a Calvanist doctrine.
It will take me a few days because I've been asked to show where Calvinists have told me that everyone born into this world is completely incapable of understanding Gods' plan for salvation and upon hearing the gospel, Calvinists believe that no one can respond towards salvation using only the minds and senses God created us with.
It really won't be difficult for me to go back and find such a conversation. It's just that I have really more important things going on and anyone who has spent a year at CF has already seen what I'm talking about 100 times over.
I'll put your name in the thread in case you want to respond.

I like how you identify yourself as a "redneck Christian." One of my friends is a redneck Christian living in North Carolina. and when I say friends I have less than 10 faithful friends in this world that with all my faults have never talked behind my back and have never lied to me.

I have friends who talk about me behind my back and lied to me, but they're not my friends. not yet anyway.😊
 
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