IS JESUS THE LITERAL SON OF GOD?

[for_his_glory]

I believe Jesus is the first of Gods works. The firstborn of all creation. Before all things except His God. He was with God in the beginning.

Please show me where you read "always was", begotten not made", true God from true God"

And you are correct you didn't state anyone was denying the HS - sorry

What do you mean by Jesus is the first of God's work? Do you mean He was created by God?

It's all explained in John 1:1-18, Notice vs. 15 where when John the Baptist bare witness of Him and said "for he was before me." John was born five or six months before Jesus, but here John says he was before him. Could this be a reference to Jesus being before the foundation of the world as the word of God before the word became flesh, I believe so.

God gave us His word in whom has many names as we know His word as Jesus come in the flesh of man, the begotten of the Father before the foundation of the world, but not as being created through procreation, but by being a part of God's divine nature as being the word of God, the second person of the Trinity as the word being made flesh sent down to the world.

 

[Pipiripi]

you are Mormon? God is truth and God will defend his truth. You claim that only the church of latter day saints possess the truth. Would you be willing to test your beliefs and see if they line up with reality the way God's truth would? If you like we could discuss it privately or here or if thats against the rules a new thread?

Open a new private thread my friend. Let we be open, please give me a little time to answered you because my English is very bad.

 

[Pipiripi]

What do you mean by Jesus is the first of God's work? Do you mean He was created by God?

It's all explained in John 1:1-18, Notice vs. 15 where when John the Baptist bare witness of Him and said "for he was before me." John was born five or six months before Jesus, but here John says he was before him. Could this be a reference to Jesus being before the foundation of the world as the word of God before the word became flesh, I believe so.

God gave us His word in whom has many names as we know His word as Jesus come in the flesh of man, the begotten of the Father before the foundation of the world, but not as being created through procreation, but by being a part of God's divine nature as being the word of God, the second person of the Trinity as the word being made flesh sent down to the world.

No, he means that Jesus has come out of His Father. Jesus come forth.
I have give you Micah and Proverbs to see, but you want more evidence. I am not an English man, but I have understand what means come forth, or begotten.

 

[PeterJens]

No, he means that Jesus has come out of His Father. Jesus come forth.
I have give you Micah and Proverbs to see, but you want more evidence. I am not an English man, but I have understand what means come forth, or begotten.

Jesus is Gods word made flesh.
If you have a book, it is words on a page, that convey meaning, except only when read.

Jesus is Gods word in human form. Jesus is a book, which speaks forth the Fathers message to us. Rather than a book of recorded static things, Jesus is Gods message with full interaction as we are human. The Father has always been and so has His expression and word, which is Jesus.

This is the point, we write books the expression of who we are, our thoughts, our aspirations, our model of the world. Jesus is Gods book, His speaking forth to the world. In one sense there is no separation from the Father, yet Jesus is a separate entity. Thus is the trinity.

When we produce an expression of ourselves it lives outside us, yet it come from us, it is part of us. God created Jesus but not as He created things in creation, because they are not Him, rather they are new entities, allowed to develop as they desire. So begotten is used to describe this unique creation, God in human form, separate yet one with the Father.

 

[JLB]

When I say if is something to kill me, is because, when there are no answers for my questions I was always be banned. That is the killing. If I write the truth of if you wrote the truth BIBLICAL. I mean that you can find it exactly the same in the Bible, and if it is against the teachings of the owner or the one that have the power to banner you because they know that you are right, but you are troubling them that want people to believe in their teachings. I was ban already about I think a 25 forums or more. But I know that there must be one that can answer all questions BIBLICAL like I do. I know that we are FEW. That is the narrow path.

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God?


This is what the scriptures plainly teach. This is the truth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, he means that Jesus has come out of His Father. Jesus come forth.
I have give you Micah and Proverbs to see, but you want more evidence. I am not an English man, but I have understand what means come forth, or begotten.

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. Proverbs 8:22

This verse does not say Jesis was created.

This verse is referring to the Lord Jesus having or possesing Wisdom when He created all things .


Do yiu understand the Seven Fold Spirit of the Lord?

The Spirit of Wisdom is one of them.



JLB

 

[Pipiripi]

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. Proverbs 8:22

This verse does not say Jesis was created.

This verse is referring to the Lord Jesus having or possesing Wisdom when He created all things .


Do yiu understand the Seven Fold Spirit of the Lord?

The Spirit of Wisdom is one of them.



JLB

Created are not the same as begotten or posses or come forth. If Jesus don't have a beginning just like the Trinity teaching teaches, that He is not a Son of God. He is God and God and God. 3 Different Gods, but one. There's no sense in this doctrine. The Bible teaches. One True God and His Son Jesus Christ and THEIR Holy Spirit. Don't you see the difference of what God teaches and men teaching?

 

[Pipiripi]

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God?


This is what the scriptures plainly teach. This is the truth.


JLB

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, what the Bible teach.
Try to understand this. I am human and my child are also human
Jehovah is God, so His Son Jesus is also God. Jehovah is the God.
A dog is an animal, so their baby is also animals. So simple truth.
My son is not me, but we are human.

 

[JLB]

Created are not the same as begotten or posses or come forth.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, what the Bible teach.
Try to understand this. I am human and my child are also human
Jehovah is God, so His Son Jesus is also God. Jehovah is the God.
A dog is an animal, so their baby is also animals. So simple truth.
My son is not me, but we are human.

Yes. True.


Please study the origen of the word Jehovah.

This is not a legitimate name of God.


YHWH is the original word in Hebrew.

Men added letters to this.


Jews who know the Hebrew language will confirm that Jehovah is not a true name of God, but perverted.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, what the Bible teach.
Try to understand this. I am human and my child are also human
Jehovah is God, so His Son Jesus is also God. Jehovah is the God.
A dog is an animal, so their baby is also animals. So simple truth.
My son is not me, but we are human.

My question is not whether Jesus is the Son of God.


My question is —


Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God of the Bible; the Old Testament?


YES OR NO?




JLB

 

[Pipiripi]

My question is not whether Jesus is the Son of God.


My question is —


Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God of the Bible; the Old Testament?


YES OR NO?




JLB

Yes

 

[Pipiripi]

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. Proverbs 8:22

This verse does not say Jesis was created.

This verse is referring to the Lord Jesus having or possesing Wisdom when He created all things .


Do yiu understand the Seven Fold Spirit of the Lord?

The Spirit of Wisdom is one of them.



JLB

Remember that Jesus says He was at the right hand when the Father created everything.

 

[JLB]

Remember that Jesus says He was at the right hand when the Father created everything.

Please post the chapter and verse for this statement.

 

[JLB]

Yes

Ok we agree. Jesus is the Lord God of the Old Testament.


So now, there is no reason for you to kill me.

 

[Pipiripi]

Ok we agree. Jesus is the Lord God of the Old Testament.


So now, there is no reason for you to kill me.

Hahaha, I have already kill you from the first day that I know you. My gun is the LOVE OF GOD AND HIS SON JESUS. Bless

 

[Pipiripi]

Please post the chapter and verse for this statement.

Ephesians 3:9.
Hebrews 1:1-14.
There is another verse where it says something like: I was sitting on the right hand when God was making..... I will see if I can find that verse.
Look good because in my Bible is written begotten in hebrews 1:5-6. Let me know if it is clear that Jesus is literal Son of God, not role playing of Son like many denominations think. Even the new SDA is in error by thinking that Jesus is role playing as Son. Thanks to the Roman Catholic Church Trinity doctrine.

 

[tigger 2]

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. Proverbs 8:22

This verse does not say Jesis was created.

This verse is referring to the Lord Jesus having or possesing Wisdom when He created all things .

Do yiu understand the Seven Fold Spirit of the Lord?

The Spirit of Wisdom is one of them.

JLB

Prov. 8:22:
"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. - Septuagint.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. - RSV.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. - NRSV.
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago." - HCSB.

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the writers of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF) admit also:
"Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel." - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10.

Here, then, is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:
"The Lord created me the beginning of His ways in His work .... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].

".... There is therefore one God, who by [through] the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all things. - ANF 1:488.
....................................................
God begets God?
"Begotten" and "created" are English words carefully chosen by Bible translators to convey the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words of the original manuscripts as closely as possible. So first we should determine what the words "created" and "begotten" actually mean in English. The Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1963 ed. that I have at home says:

"create ... 1: to bring into existence...3 : cause, make" - p. 195. And beget ... begot ... begotten ... 1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : cause" - p. 77.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company:

be·get
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce
The Hebrew word yalad means "to bear, bring forth, beget"- Gesenius, #3205, but it can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for "cause to be." For example, when God says he "begot"/"fathered" (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be as a nation.
"You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and ceased to care for God who brought you to birth." - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created:

"Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth" - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; "begotten" - NAB (1970); "were given birth" - MLB. Or, "Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed." - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated "begotten, brought forth" may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

Dr. Williston Walker writes in his classic work, A History of the Christian Church, 4th ed.:
"Christian thought had early learned to express its monotheistic stance by insisting that God is the sole agennetos ('underived,' 'ungenerated' ['unbegotten']): that is, the unique and absolute first principle. By contrast with God, all else that exists - including the Logos, God's Son - was described as generated ['begotten']." - p. 132, Charles Scribner's Sons, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1985. [Emphasis and bracketed material added.]

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) wrote:
"God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, and therefore He is God, but all other things after him are created and corruptible {Justin has just concurred that the world itself was begotten by God} .... take your stand on one Unbegotten [the Father], and say this is the Cause of all." - ANF 1:197 ('Dialogue').

But,

"Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten" - ANF 1:170 ('Apology').

Since God has begotten all creation, it should not be surprising to find that the Word was 'begotten' by God and does not mean that he must also be God.

 

[JLB]

Prov. 8:22:
"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. - Septuagint.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. - RSV.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. - NRSV.
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago." - HCSB.

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the writers of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF) admit also:
"Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel." - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10.

Here, then, is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:
"The Lord created me the beginning of His ways in His work .... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].

".... There is therefore one God, who by [through] the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all things. - ANF 1:488.
....................................................
God begets God?
"Begotten" and "created" are English words carefully chosen by Bible translators to convey the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words of the original manuscripts as closely as possible. So first we should determine what the words "created" and "begotten" actually mean in English. The Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1963 ed. that I have at home says:

"create ... 1: to bring into existence...3 : cause, make" - p. 195. And beget ... begot ... begotten ... 1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : cause" - p. 77.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company:

be·get
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce
The Hebrew word yalad means "to bear, bring forth, beget"- Gesenius, #3205, but it can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for "cause to be." For example, when God says he "begot"/"fathered" (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be as a nation.
"You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and ceased to care for God who brought you to birth." - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created:

"Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth" - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; "begotten" - NAB (1970); "were given birth" - MLB. Or, "Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed." - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated "begotten, brought forth" may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

Dr. Williston Walker writes in his classic work, A History of the Christian Church, 4th ed.:
"Christian thought had early learned to express its monotheistic stance by insisting that God is the sole agennetos ('underived,' 'ungenerated' ['unbegotten']): that is, the unique and absolute first principle. By contrast with God, all else that exists - including the Logos, God's Son - was described as generated ['begotten']." - p. 132, Charles Scribner's Sons, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1985. [Emphasis and bracketed material added.]

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) wrote:
"God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, and therefore He is God, but all other things after him are created and corruptible {Justin has just concurred that the world itself was begotten by God} .... take your stand on one Unbegotten [the Father], and say this is the Cause of all." - ANF 1:197 ('Dialogue').

But,

"Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten" - ANF 1:170 ('Apology').

Since God has begotten all creation, it should not be surprising to find that the Word was 'begotten' by God and does not mean that he must also be God.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Prov. 8:22:
"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. - Septuagint.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. - RSV.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. - NRSV.
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago." - HCSB.

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the writers of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF) admit also:
"Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel." - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10

“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old. Proverbs 8:22


The LORD in this verse is referring to Jesus Christ, who created all things.


He possessed Wisdom, ie; The Spirit of Wisdom, as well as Knowledge and Understanding.


There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:1-2


JLB