Important: How can/do you apply your salvation stance?

[cyberjosh]

I want to make this thread about one thing: practical applications. I want to go a little beyond what we usually debate here. I don't want to have a debate in here about whether you can or cannot lose your salvation other than if it is absolutely necessary to bring up a practical point.

Now I bet most people don't stop to think about this but those who believe you can't loose your salvation and those who believe you can often can agree on everything in the middle that is actually practical applications of their conclusions. My Pastor and I are like this. I tend to lean toward that you can loose your salvation but my Pastor tends to lean the other direction yet we both agree on that the believer must persevere to the end to be saved (as Jesus said) and that one is kept by God by their faith (1 Peter 1:5), thus the practical reason for faith. But whether you believe you can or can't lose your salvation - those are an impractical aspect of your conclusions; while what you do or think as a result of your conviction (on whichever stance you take) and how you apply it is practical, thus two people who disagree may have the exact same effect in how they live their life and apply their conclusions.

However there can be some differences noted and I want to explore those here, though our practical applications may have more in common than we think.

First of all because of my (impractical - as noted above) conclusion that one can lose their salvation I therefore (practically) have great concern not to offend my weaker brethren, lest they stumble and and their conscience be violated (Romans 14). We have to weigh the consequences of what this would mean if our brother in Christ was to have their conscience violated. What would happen then? I'll explore this in a minute.
....
Now let me go on a small tangent here before I make my main point. Those who love to make the "he was never saved in the first place" arguement for people who say they are saved yet seem to live in sin I must make a point that a Christian (although an abnormal experience) can live worldy and still be saved. You may say, "James 4:4 says, 'Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?' and the believer cannot be hostile to God". Now wait a minute, does not the Word of God say in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.? We all know that a Christian can still slip into the flesh, and since the flesh is at enmity with the Spirit (God) then when the Christian slips into the flesh he is placing himself into a position of enmity/hostility with God (temporarily - we hope).

So let us not jump to conclusions that just because someone acts worldy that they are not saved. Because you could then (practically) misapply/misdaignose the problem thus approach reproving the person in sin with the wrong method. If you approach a backslidden believer with council of "how to get saved" you would not be helping in the least and may actually confuse the person into doubt (and perhaps scandalize a weaker brothers conscience) when you should have instead headed the words of Galatians 6:1 which speaks of restoring a brother: "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness" and adminoshing him about how his Savior (since he is saved) can help him.

Thus do not abuse "he was never saved in the first place" (although sometimes applicable) because it could cause more harm than good. I say this because a couple months ago here on the boards there were those who presumptuously called others unsaved just because they disagreed with them on an issue. While I pointed out that we should judge with righteous judgement rather than judging by external standards (John 7:24).
...
Now getting back to my point of not offending the weaker brother in the faith. Because of my belief that one can lose their salvation, if my weaker brother stumbles and harms his conscience, possibly leading him to more worldliness (keep in mind this person is saved - remember what I just said about "he was never saved to begin with) I would be concerned to want to "restore such a one" (Galatians 6:1) so that he would not walk down a path to destruction. What would the consequences of our brother stumbling me? That's for you to decide. But I say we should have concern to restore a possibly woldly or weaker brother without presuming he isn't saved because of how he lives, which might cause you to come at him with the wrong approach (misdiagnosis) - like "you need to be saved" when he actually needs to be restored in a spirit of gentleness, and built back up in Christ. I would be very careful to tell those who I love in the Church (even those who are saved) what 1 Corinthians 10:12 says, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall" while not presuming that this only applies to the unbeliever who only thinks he is saved (which it doesn't - this is a warning for beleivers as well).

So here is my question: Do any of you who believe that you cannot lose your salvation hold the same practical applications as I have presented, to where you would be genuinely concerned for those who walk the ragged edge without presuming "If they are saved they will be ok in the end" or "they were never saved to begin with"? If so I would like to know what Scriptures you use to support your view (since you are coming from the opposite perspective) to where you would actually be concerned about true believers possibly ruining their consciences or their lives by walking the "ragged edge". Where is that fine line, and do we have to call all those who walk so close to it "unsaved"?


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Here is my ultimate concern (if I had to sum everything above up): That for those truely saved believers who do "walk the ragged edge" (who from my perspective would be close to "loosing their salvation") another believer who is in a position to try to do something might either look at them as "a helpless and obstinate believer" and say "if they're saved only God can straighten them out" (thus we don't attempt to help those "walking the line" - which is dangerous) or they would say "they aren't even saved" and thus misdaignose the problem and could make things worse by trying to tell them that they should be saved when what they need is encouragement that Jesus (whom they have already accepted) can help them out of their situation) - and thus preform the duty of Galatians 6:1 of "restoring such a one".

Can we agree that "those we don't know about" doesn't necessarily mean they are unsaved and that they may be having a hard time demonstrating outwardly in their fruit the inward reality? And if our practical applications are the same then really it doesn't matter too much which side you take on the salvation issue. We would all agree that we must persevere, no matter what stance you take, and we would certainly (I hope) want to restore those weaker bretheren who may be close to ruin (Romans 14) to help them also persevere.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

It is interesting that you formulate a discussion with a viewpoint that is acceptable to you with a personal perspective that may or may not exist in reality, while shackeling any profitable response from a Scriptural perspective discussing the promise of eternal life given by God the Father through Jesus Christ's propitiation, sealed with the earnest of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation apart from God's free justification to those whom the Holy Spirit performed a good work in and through to the total end that one can be eternally secure and saved in this life until the redemption, is not salvation.

When I was a young believer, I too thought that one could lose their salvation, but God Almighty revealed to me the error of my thought process, and He continued to show me the truth of one being born into the kingdom of God one time through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Here are some truths for you to study, and from experience, you will not believe God's truth until He shows you first hand, no matter how many spiritually mature individuals preach the truth to you. Here is God's Word; Study it in prayer for God's will to be done, not your own will:

• 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18-19
  
  5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5
  
  3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, F7 he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:3-15

When Salvation becomes a human merit, it can be lost; but as long as Salvation is the free gift of a righteous God, whose grace exceeds any and all sin of a believer, the assurance of the promise of eternal life is sealed.

 

[cyberjosh]

It is interesting that you formulate a discussion with a viewpoint that is acceptable to you with a personal perspective that may or may not exist in reality, while shackeling any profitable response from a Scriptural perspective discussing the promise of eternal life given by God the Father through Jesus Christ's propitiation, sealed with the earnest of the Holy Spirit.

If I wanted to debate whether you can or can't lose your salvation (and I will be continuing to do so in other threads) I would have said so. Yet you do not seem to appreciate that at the end of the day the stance you take must be applied. And whether you want to admit it or not, how I may apply my conviction to help other people may be no different than your approach. This is what I want to discuss and discover. That way we can see what really matters in the end. If you disagree, say so, and make a case for it please.

P.S. If you don't feel like giving it up though you may PM me the rest of your thoughts. Just please don't hijack the topic of my OP.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Honestly Solo, I would really love to hear your thoughts on the practical aspects that I have raised. My limited scope for a topic may be to your distaste, but this helps me see what common ground I have with people, and once that is established you and others will actually have better grounds on which to convince me of your position. That's just the way my mind works. I need common ground. If you can find it with me you will actually be doing yourself a favor so that you can let me see where you are coming from, and thus would would have a better chance of making a point hit home with me. So please address these practical issues first. My approach may be backwards to yours, but I (for now) need this approach.

I'm asking you as a friend if you would please indulge me.

Sincerely,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, What do you mean by perseverance. The flesh is not going to persevere. It dies eventually. Do you really think all have to persevere to keep their salvation? Of course our regenerated spirits will persevere. Many will not succed in all the tribulations we face. If a person lives in sin, I believe he will suffer premature death, but not spiritual death. The real problem for Christians is the soulish area ( will, emotions, and intellect). This is why we should renew our minds like Paul said. Maybe, you should clarify how you view the new birth before you start disecting who is saved and not, and if one can lose their salvation.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, What do you mean by perseverance. The flesh is not going to persevere. It dies eventually. Do you really think all have to persevere to keep their salvation? Of course our regenerated spirits will persevere. Many will not succed in all the tribulations we face. If a person lives in sin, I believe he will suffer premature death, but not spiritual death. The real problem for Christians is the soulish area ( will, emotions, and intellect). This is why we should renew our minds like Paul said. Maybe, you should clarify how you view the new birth before you start disecting who is saved and not, and if one can lose their salvation.

Golfjack,

I appreciate your sincere question but to delve into what you are asking me to explain will turn this into a salvation debate. That's not what I want, I want to look at how we apply these things.

There is a main question that I gave that the bottom of the OP. if you could answer that that would be great. It's pretty straight forward.

But to quickly answer your question I was refering to the verse that says, "He who endures [perseveres] to the end shall be saved".

P.S. I would be pleased if you answered my question in the OP so that I can get this topic rolling.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

Yes, as a minister of course I would help a struggling believer. I would tell them that they must change their thinking before they can get their flesh better under control. If they were really getting into that world and really had a sin problem, I would ask them how they got saved and ask them to redicate their lives and would pray for them. And I would stress a good balanced Christian life. Just stick in the middle and don't go into the works ditch or holy ditch. That way, you will not fall off the cliff.

I believe the end of our faith is found in 1 Peter 1:9, the salvation of our souls. You see, our souls are in the process of being saved and this process is completed when we get to heaven.


I hope this answers your questions. Remember we have an enemy to fight and some of us are losing because they don't know the authority they have in Christ. Also, God has done all He is going to do to save us and the rest is up to us. Many will not probably finish their race, but will make it into heaven.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

Honestly Solo, I would really love to hear your thoughts on the practical aspects that I have raised. My limited scope for a topic may be to your distaste, but this helps me see what common ground I have with people, and once that is established you and others will actually have better grounds on which to convince me of your position. That's just the way my mind works. I need common ground. If you can find it with me you will actually be doing yourself a favor so that you can let me see where you are coming from, and thus would would have a better chance of making a point hit home with me. So please address these practical issues first. My approach may be backwards to yours, but I (for now) need this approach.

I'm asking you as a friend if you would please indulge me.

Sincerely,

~Josh

Josh,
I would suggest that you are the younger believer in Christ Jesus between the two of us, and as I have pointed out, I have been where you are at in your confusion in regards to the eternal security of the believer; therefore, the only thing that you can do until convicted of the truth of God's Word concerning this point is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ for those whom God leads you, and pray for the understanding and wisdom of God for your ability to help others.

Until you are convinced of the truth of eternal security, you must only speak of what you are convinced of as truth. If you are convinced that a born again believer can be lost to condemnation once again, then you really ought to study this with someone who has been there. I welcome your PMs in this regard, and I will answer all of your questions pertaining to the same.

Salvation is a one time occurance to be completly fulfilled at the return of Jesus Christ when the body will be resurrected and changed into a glorious, immortal, incorruptible body reunited with the born of God spiritual New Creature of the believer.

 

[cyberjosh]

I would suggest that you are the younger believer in Christ Jesus between the two of us, and as I have pointed out, I have been where you are at in your confusion in regards to the eternal security of the believer; therefore, the only thing that you can do until convicted of the truth of God's Word concerning this point is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ for those whom God leads you, and pray for the understanding and wisdom of God for your ability to help others.

Until you are convinced of the truth of eternal security, you must only speak of what you are convinced of as truth. If you are convinced that a born again believer can be lost to condemnation once again, then you really ought to study this with someone who has been there. I welcome your PMs in this regard, and I will answer all of your questions pertaining to the same.

I don't claim to be right, I just take this stance until I can make a more conclusive decision, and this thread would have helped me do that, but apparently no one wants to play ball.

However, are you implying that my topic has no relevance? Why do we debate if we cannot apply it? If you want to convince to of eternal security you can help me by answering my simple question in the OP. What do you have against doing that?

~Josh

 

[Solo]

I don't claim to be right, I just take this stance until I can make a more conclusive decision, and this thread would have helped me do that, but apparently no one wants to play ball.

However, are you implying that my topic has no relevance? Why do we debate if we cannot apply it? If you want to convince to of eternal security you can help me by answering my simple question in the OP. What do you have against doing that?

~Josh

Ask me your question in a simple fashion apart from long, drawn-out, rhetoric of your OP, and I will answer the question. Please do not place boundaries or restrictions on that manner of the answer, as it will be necessary to hit all points that are imperative to discuss the matter intelligently.
Thanks.

PS It is not my job to convince you of the truth of a believer's eternal security. I can only give you the truth as revealed in the Word of God. It is up to you to believe the truth as revealed to you by God Almighty.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Timely Word 4 Today..

Through Jesus. . .

. . .everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." (NIV) Acts 10:43


Through Jesus you can experience forgiveness
for your sins. . .

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. (Acts 5:31)

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives
forgiveness of sins through his name." (Acts 10:43)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace (Ephesians 1:7)

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:13-14)

Through Jesus you can be reconciled to God. ..

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:18-19)

Written by Marji "Mike" Kruger

For more on a relationship with God. . .

http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=qrvtcacab.0.ggg ... 4027&ts=S0
253&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anchorlife.org%2Fhtml%2Fwhy_bother.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today's Read through the Bible Passage

Today's Reading: Psalm 121 and Acts 9-11


The Read through the Bible reading calendar

http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=qrvtcacab.0.hgg ... 253&p=http
%3A%2F%2Fanchorlife.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fcalendar%2Fcalendar.cgi)


Read the passage online...

http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=qrvtcacab.0.jng ... 5bnoobab.4
027&ts=S0253&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anchoryourlife.com%2Fcourses%2Freadthroughbible%2Faprilrd.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forward this to a Friend

 

[cyberjosh]

Ask me your question in a simple fashion apart from long, drawn-out, rhetoric of your OP, and I will answer the question. Please do not place boundaries or restrictions on that manner of the answer, as it will be necessary to hit all points that are imperative to discuss the matter intelligently.
Thanks.

PS It is not my job to convince you of the truth of a believer's eternal security. I can only give you the truth as revealed in the Word of God. It is up to you to believe the truth as revealed to you by God Almighty.

Here:

Do any of you who believe that you cannot lose your salvation (I only say this to distinguish who I am talking to) hold the same practical applications of helping true (but weaker) brethren presevere, to where you would be genuinely concerned for those who walk the ragged edge without presuming "If they are saved they will be ok in the end" or "they were never saved to begin with"? If so I would like to know what Scriptures you use to support your view (since you are coming from the opposite perspective) to where you would actually be concerned about true believers possibly damaging their consciences (Romans 14) or their lives by walking the "ragged edge". Where is that fine line, and do we have to call all those who walk so close to it "unsaved"?

----------------

I copied that almost exactly from the last paragraph of my OP but I did edit it a little for clarity. Keep in mind I did not post any "rhetoric" and this is not a "challenge" but it was and always has been a genuine question (and I sincerely would like to see your supporting Scripture for helping true believers who "walk the edge"), so please don't read anything into my motives. I'm always open to listening. I just want, like I said, to see our points of similarities and differences and work them out. I would be delighted if you could answer the summarized questions above. Thanks.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Veritas]

Do any of you who believe that you cannot lose your salvation (I only say this to distinguish who I am talking to) hold the same practical applications of helping true (but weaker) brethren presevere, to where you would be genuinely concerned for those who walk the ragged edge without presuming "If they are saved they will be ok in the end" or "they were never saved to begin with"?

I believe that once you attain salvation you cannot lose it. However, I can't distinguish what is in a person's heart. So I don't really know which person is a weak brethren and which person is an unbeliever. I do care deeply about peoples salvation so I continue to point anyone I can in the direction of Jesus.

If so I would like to know what Scriptures you use to support your view (since you are coming from the opposite perspective) to where you would actually be concerned about true believers possibly damaging their consciences (Romans 14) or their lives by walking the "ragged edge". Where is that fine line, and do we have to call all those who walk so close to it "unsaved"?

It would be beautiful if we could all shine like stars....

â€â€continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life. Philippians 2:12-16

 

[cyberjosh]

So I don't really know which person is a weak brethren and which person is an unbeliever.

That's the tragedy of it though isn't it? How degredating would that be for a true believer to be in that position? We must have real concern for them.

Assuming you knew this person was a believer but was living like the world. How would you personally address the problem and what Scripture do you think would pertain to their condidtion? Do you agree with what I said in my OP that James 4:4 could also pertain to a Christians who slips into their flesh, thus creating a state of enmity? Of course I realize this isn't fun to talk about, but I want to know some remedies for when these dark and sad encounters sometimes happen, because I have a friend for which it grieves me that I don't know whether she is really saved or not or whether she is just going through the motions of Church and religion. I have to believe though that if she is saved that some Scripture could describe her condition. This is why I find this topic important, because what if she is saved and she is walking the edge? How can I prevent her "destruction" (Romans 14) spoken of what can happen to a weak believers conscience?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Titus 2:11-15

 

[cyberjosh]

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

This is true, because - of course - it is Scripture. However this did not prevent me from disobeying God during my early teenage years, though I was saved, and falling into destructive strongholds such as pornography, secular music with filthy lyrics, etc. which have taken me a long time to fight off the effects of. My friend has also fallen into that, and I know what it's like. Would you mind gracing me with your own personal opinion and responses to my last post? I would enjoy some honest discussion.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

An extra note: One practical thing though (since this thread is about practical applications) that I know works for helping unbelievers, believers, backsliders, or all alike is prayer. I pray for my friend almost every day on my way home from work, and I know one way or another that God will answer diligent and fervent prayers. I just wish I knew more about how Christians fall into such strongholds and what to pray for to deliver them from it.

 

[jgredline]

I just posted this in another thread and perhaps it will fit well here....

Folks...The Christian life is one of heart ache, trials, tribulations..Christians are hated through out this world....Christians are persecuted because we stand up for what is right....e.g. Pro life, marriage between man and a women...etc....

Soon after one is born again, the demons come out and begin to oppress the new creation....If one does not get oppressed and tempted and face trials and tribulations, one has to question if he/she is really saved....The fact is the Christian life is hard....., its tough.....Jesus himself was tempted....you know the story....

So what happens when false teachers like Rob Bell and the emergent church teach this watered down false Gospel?...

I will tell you what happens...They are easy prey for the forces of darkness and because they have no foundation, they get up rooted and trampled....

Another thing that happens when these trials come, these people with no foundation will run away from God and live a miserable life blaming God for all the troubles of there life.....

No the Christian Life is a tough one, but Christians that are rooted in the word of God will persevere with ''JOY''....That is the difference...A Christians life though tough, is ''always'' full of Joy.....

When a person is born again and begins to sin, the hand of God comes down to give us a whooping to get us back in line...This is a fact as is taught in scripture......

 

[Veritas]

So I don't really know which person is a weak brethren and which person is an unbeliever.

That's the tragedy of it though isn't it? How degredating would that be for a true believer to be in that position? We must have real concern for them.

Yes, I agree it is a tragedy.

Josh, my heart goes out to you and your friend. Like you said, pray...and keep praying. I'll pray too. I know God wants us to talk to Him about such things. I know He wants us to care. And I hope He will give you His guidance... just try not to put all the responsibility on yourself and beat yourself up about it. You are a vessel for God and His work. You can plant a seed. But it is His work. I think you know that, but it's good to be reminded of that every so often. This makes me think of a verse Paul wrote, I know he was writing regarding divisions in the church but I think he hit on some points regarding to this too.

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believeâ€â€as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:5-11

I think there is alot to ponder in the verses above. I hope it helps to address some of your questions.