Important: How can/do you apply your salvation stance?

[Solo]

This is true, because - of course - it is Scripture. However this did not prevent me from disobeying God during my early teenage years, though I was saved, and falling into destructive strongholds such as pornography, secular music with filthy lyrics, etc. which have taken me a long time to fight off the effects of. My friend has also fallen into that, and I know what it's like. Would you mind gracing me with your own personal opinion and responses to my last post? I would enjoy some honest discussion.

God Bless,

~Josh

The important point here is one which you refuse to accept as a point of discussion. One's salvation is very important in discussing this matter.

You make a telling statement, "However this did not prevent me from disobeying God during my early teenage years, though I was saved, and falling into destructive strongholds..."

I note that you say that you disobeyed God during your early teenage years, THOUGH YOU WERE SAVED. I suspect that you still disobey God, even though you are saved.

This battle of sin is described very plainly in Romans 7:14-24:

• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

All believers have the flesh to contend with, but those who are not saved have nothing but the flesh. They have no born again inward man to assist in the battle over the flesh. Paul speaks to us about walking in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. All who have been born again can walk in the spirit, but those who have not been born again, cannot.

If your friend is saved, then your prayers and witness should be directed toward her education such as a Bible Study, a Prayer time for other friends together, Christian Fellowship, etc.. If your friend is not saved, then your prayers should be for her protection from evil and harm, the ministering of God's Holy Angels, the Holy Spirit to convict her of sin, and her salvation according to God's will.

Ask her what her thoughts are concerning various Bible verses. One to start with would be:

• 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:1-3
  
  AND
  
  1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:1-8

You are correct in your assessment of prayer being the action which will assist you and your friend for the effectual prayers of a righteous man avails much.

• Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

 

[Veritas]

Thanks Solo, that happened to be a good post for me too.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thank you. All three of you, for your posts. That does help me. And it is good adivce. You see, I've just had such a hard time seeing how "worldy Christians" could even exist in the past but I've come to see it is possible, and it hurt to see people walk the edge and naturally this is spiritually unhealthy and I am concerned about what might happen to such believers if they don't advance in their relationship with God. The Bible strongly suggests that it is possible for some believers to even be led away by destructive heresies, so naturally I would be concerned. But I realize that prayer is probably my only best practical option even if I cannot speak to my friend anymore (I'll explain why in a minute).

I just have a few questions/clarifications though on this issue:

All believers have the flesh to contend with, but those who are not saved have nothing but the flesh. They have no born again inward man to assist in the battle over the flesh. Paul speaks to us about walking in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. All who have been born again can walk in the spirit, but those who have not been born again, cannot.

Yes, I agree. However, I would like to know more about strongholds, because there can be strongholds in Christian's lives (a repetitive area of sin). Strongholds are a little bit more powerful to battle against than typical "everyday" sins (by no means belittling such sins - I just don't know how else to say it). Strongholds can root deep in your past in which some decision you made sticks with you with serious consequences and it is hard to break such things. I know the Bible talks about spiritual strongholds of the enemy (in Ephesians) but are there any other Scriptures which deal with such stongholds/vices and how they can be effectively broken? Perhaps some of the more severe strongholds might take the same prescription as Jesus said for the demon possessed person, "These kind go out only by prayer and fasting."

If your friend is saved, then your prayers and witness should be directed toward her education such as a Bible Study, a Prayer time for other friends together, Christian Fellowship, etc.. If your friend is not saved, then your prayers should be for her protection from evil and harm, the ministering of God's Holy Angels, the Holy Spirit to convict her of sin, and her salvation according to God's will.

Thank you I will take that into mind. I find myself having to pray both lately since I am confused as to her standing before God.

Ask her what her thoughts are concerning various Bible verses. One to start with would be:

I wish I could but recently she went back to Germany (she was an exchange student), and God for some reason created a stumbling block to test both me and her at the same time. About a week before we graduated I wanted to keep in touch with her when she went back, so she helped me make a facebook account so I could contact her via its e-mail. Well that afternoon after we did that she went out with some friends to a nearby city for a "goodbye" celebration to a club (which I was uncomfortable with anyway - and I had to choke out a loving admonition for her not to get drunk). Our friendship has always been characterized by no conflict, kinda peaches & roses so it was very hard to confront her. But it turns out at the club she had some pictures made (no doubt though she thought she was just having "good clean fun") that were rather sensual in nature and put them on facebook. I had to confront her, lovingly and gently about it over facebook, using adequate Scripture to back it. But I'm afraid it was such a shock to her, that I spoke against her, that she is either mad at me or afraid to write back, because she will not, or has not, written me back. She may never either. But when I felt God wanted me to say something about the issue (it was already bothering me), I literally moaned out loud in my car when it hit me that God was wanting me to say something about it and I said "God, you got to be kidding me" because I so did not want to get involved in that or have to confront her (kinda makes we wonder how Paul felt when he had to confront Peter). But nonetheless I was obedient. I just hate it that she may now hate me for trying to correct her.

But all I know is that I was obedient to what God told me and something unfortunate seems to have occured as a result. It looks like she was scandalized (probably the best word to use because the greek word for "stumbling block" and "offense" is scandalizo) over the issue.

What do you think of this?

~Josh

 

[Solo]

Josh,

You really have answered your own questions. Also, I suspect that you hear God telling you what it is that you must do to overcome the strongholds and what to do in the case of your friend. Even though we know what God is telling us, we like to lay out the fleece a couple of times to validate what is being said.

In order for strongholds to be torn down, one must do a couple of things. First, one must understand that while one walks in the flesh as opposed to walking in the spirit, one will sin. In order to walk in the spirit, one must understand their standing in Christ Jesus, and through His strength walk moment by moment.

• 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.Philippians 4:13

Know that as a believer you have authority in the name of Jesus to bind and conquer the enemy.

• And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19

After an understanding of who a believer actually is in Christ Jesus, one must gird themselves with the armor of God before battling the enemy. Meditate on the Scripture that speaks of putting on this armor.

• 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh F18 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;Ephesians 6:10-18

Prayer is the weapon of choice for believers. When prayer is that which includes the truth of the Word of God, nothing can stand in its path. Jesus sent his disciples out by twos. It is good for a believer to have a fellow believer to stay accountable to, to pray with, and to confess sins to. When one is physically or spiritually sick, prayer and confession is very important.

• 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly F22 that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:16-20
  
  17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:17-24

Walk in the spirit and not in the flesh so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Fasting assists in being able to subject the flesh to the command of the Spirit; therefore, prayer and fasting is very powerful in tearing down strongholds and in overcoming unbelief.

• 27 Neither give place to the devil. Ephesians 4:27
  
  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Romans 13:14
  
  7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. James 4:7-8

Know that He who began a good work in you will continue until He He returns.

• 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

God bless you and yours,
Michael

 

[cyberjosh]

Even though we know what God is telling us, we like to lay out the fleece a couple of times to validate what is being said.

I'm a Gideon man, I must admit.

I just want to be able to shout "The Sword of the Lord!" and weild it with authority and confidence.

 

[Solo]

I'm a Gideon man, I must admit.

I just want to be able to shout "The Sword of the Lord!" and weild it with authority and confidence.

We all are brother! :

 

[francisdesales]

The important point here is one which you refuse to accept as a point of discussion. One's salvation is very important in discussing this matter.

You make a telling statement, "However this did not prevent me from disobeying God during my early teenage years, though I was saved, and falling into destructive strongholds..."

I note that you say that you disobeyed God during your early teenage years, THOUGH YOU WERE SAVED. I suspect that you still disobey God, even though you are saved.

This battle of sin is described very plainly in Romans 7:14-24:

• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

All believers have the flesh to contend with, but those who are not saved have nothing but the flesh. They have no born again inward man to assist in the battle over the flesh. Paul speaks to us about walking in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. All who have been born again can walk in the spirit, but those who have not been born again, cannot.

If your friend is saved, then your prayers and witness should be directed toward her education such as a Bible Study, a Prayer time for other friends together, Christian Fellowship, etc.. If your friend is not saved, then your prayers should be for her protection from evil and harm, the ministering of God's Holy Angels, the Holy Spirit to convict her of sin, and her salvation according to God's will.

Ask her what her thoughts are concerning various Bible verses. One to start with would be:

• 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:1-3
  
  AND
  
  1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:1-8

You are correct in your assessment of prayer being the action which will assist you and your friend for the effectual prayers of a righteous man avails much.

• Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

Edit for ad homien attack consider this a warning....jg

It is posts like this that we Catholics hold out hope that "we may all be one".

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

I note that you say that you disobeyed God during your early teenage years, THOUGH YOU WERE SAVED. I suspect that you still disobey God, even though you are saved.

Ah I just noticed that last sentance in specific. Yes, we all still sin when we are saved. What I meant for the contrast though (just in case you were wondering) is that I was living a blatantly backsliding, hypocritical life engulfed by all manner of ungodliness (though I was saved - thus the paradox of a "good tree does not bear bad fruit" meeting its temporary exception), which is far (thank God!) from my lifestyle today. I was just scared for people who are in that position like I was because it was strong influence to break, even with Christ's Spirit working in me (which is what eventually turned my lifestyle sour to my stomach and forced me away from it eventually). Satan tries to devour even Christians (the roaring lion) and sometimes wounds them quite severely, but bless the Lord - Christ heals and saves!

 

[Solo]

Ah I just noticed that last sentance in specific. Yes, we all still sin when we are saved. What I meant for the contrast though (just in case you were wondering) is that I was living a blatantly backsliding, hypocritical life engulfed by all manner of ungodliness (though I was saved - thus the paradox of a "good tree does not bear bad fruit" meeting its temporary exception), which is far (thank God!) from my lifestyle today. I was just scared for people who are in that position like I was because it was strong influence to break, even with Christ's Spirit working in me (which is what eventually turned my lifestyle sour to my stomach and forced me away from it eventually). Satan tries to devour even Christians (the roaring lion) and sometimes wounds them quite severely, but bless the Lord - Christ heals and saves!

And to think you are in question about eternal security of the believer! :o

As long as you are dragging that old, nasty, corrupt, mortal, sold under sin flesh around with you, there will be a battle between it and your born of God, immortal, incorrupt, New Creature Inward Man of the believer. :

 

[cyberjosh]

And to think you are in question about eternal security of the believer!

I don't hold to no security, but I do hold that you have to make your election sure. And by your faith God will keep you, but we must excercise it. I can only speak for my own position and past experience. While I thank the Lord for it, I can only hope He does the same for others, if they will let Him and won't resist Him.

I can only imagine what would happen if I had ignored God and continued down that road...

I'm glad I didn't recieve the grace of God in vain though!

~Josh

 

[Solo]

I don't hold to no security, but I do hold that you have to make your election sure. And by your faith God will keep you, but we must excercise it. I can only speak for my own position and past experience. While I thank the Lord for it, I can only hope He does the same for others, if they will let Him and won't resist Him.

I can only imagine what would happen if I had ignored God and continued down that road...

I'm glad I didn't recieve the grace of God in vain though!

~Josh

At what point in your past sinfulness were you unborn again? Being born again is a one time occurance. After that, one is a child of God forever.

 

[cyberjosh]

At what point in your past sinfulness were you unborn again?

I wasn't. Not to say one cannot do so. If I had run farther at that point it would have only made it harder to pull me back. And Hebrews warns against developing a hard heart, because it cannot feel God's tug on itself, and you might ignore God's chastizement (Hebrews 12). And no, you are right, being born again is a one time experience. Apostacy, in my view, is not an easy nor a quick occurance, it takes repetitive rejection of God's grace (which could stretch for years). Thus the admonition to Christians "Do not recieve the grace of God in vain".

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

Josh or anybody
Let me ask you 2 questions....
1) Can Satan take away your salvation?

2) Can God take away your salvation?

 

[Vic C.]

Josh or anybody
Let me ask you 2 questions....
1) Can Satan take away your salvation?

2) Can God take away your salvation?

Great questions, bro. Would you like the Calvinist, Arminian or Calviminian answers? :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

1) Can Satan take away your salvation?

2) Can God take away your salvation?

1) No.

2) The difference here is between can and will. Yes, God can take your salvation away, as he withdrew his salvation from OT personalities. He does not have to place his Spirit in man, it is a gift. "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever" (Genesis 6:3). "Will He" can fall on either side of the pole. This is where Man's reaction to God comes in IMO.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

or Calviminian

LOL. Have you looked at my "stuck in the middle" thread yet? It talks about the positions that fall between Calvinism & Arminianism in the form of a joke. You should look at it.

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

LOL. Have you looked at my "stuck in the middle" thread yet? It talks about the positions that fall between Calvinism & Arminianism in the form of a joke. You should look at it.

~Josh

That's originally Javier's term; I just changed the spelling a bit. 8-)

---------

Where is this thread of yours? :-?

 

[jgredline]

1) No.

2) The difference here is between can and will. Yes, God can take your salvation away, as he withdrew his salvation from OT personalities. He does not have to place his Spirit in man, it is a gift. "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever" (Genesis 6:3). "Will He" can fall on either side of the pole. This is where Man's reaction to God comes in IMO.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh
Now these two questions I asked, I have never thought about or heard, so this is new to me as well....Perhaps it will make for some good conversation...Perhaps others will join in....

Can Satan take away ones salvation? No...But he can sure trick and fool people into thinking that they could....This will lead to a Christian living a miserable life.....

Can God take away a persons salvation? NO....OK, I know, now I sound like a quack.....but let me explain my reasoning....

Salvation is a ''gift'' from God...There is nothing we can do to earn it....eph 2:8-9.....So if this is a ''gift'' from God and he were to take it away...What would this make God?

Can God Lie?

So there are two more questions for you folks.....

 

[golfjack]

reply

How do you guys interpret this verse: 1 John 5:16, If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death, I do not say that he should pray about that. Interesting verse Huh? Looking for comments?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Veritas]

Well, I haven't thought too much on this either, but in light of golfjack's verse, could it be possible that God would take a believer's life when the believer is backsliding really bad rather than take away the believer's salvation?

Just a thought.