Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[Rajesh Sahu]

raj



Seems you promote salvation by works, good deeds, not good friend !

I do not promote anything friend which Jesus did not teach. I promote HIM
That being said, what CRITERIA/ METRIC did the Christ employ/ choose to Save and Condemn on the last day?
Can I have your thoughts on it please.
It is crucial to understand what Christ was trying to convey bc thats exactly how its going to play out on the last day. It's a vision of a future event, destined and ordained to happen. Nobody can change it even if we deny it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again I repeat sir, Jesus's words Trump every other writer in NT

Premise 1: God is one in essence and three in person
Premise 2: All members of the trinity are co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal
Premise 3: All scripture is inspired by one author
Conclusion: Your statement that "Jesus's words Trump every other writer in NT" is a heretical statement. Any conclusions based on this statement are in error

Premise 1: God never contradicts Himself
Premise 2: God inspired the writings of the entire Bible
Conclusion: You CAN NEVER exegete Scripture by saying that what Jesus says nullifies other things God has said.

Aside: It is unlikely that you will find 1 person in 100 that agrees with your doctrine of "what Jesus says TRUMPS any other scripture" .... but why not start a thread to ask whether or not Jesus' words trump any other scripture ...

 

[brightfame52]

I do not promote anything friend which Jesus did not teach. I promote HIM
That being said, what CRITERIA/ METRIC did the Christ employ/ choose to Save and Condemn on the last day?
Can I have your thoughts on it please.
It is crucial to understand what Christ was trying to convey bc thats exactly how its going to play out on the last day. It's a vision of a future event, destined and ordained to happen. Nobody can change it even if we deny it.

Who do the Apostles promote, fred flintsone ?

 

[Lilac]

Hi Lilac
You first wrote verse 9: "Noah was a just man, and perfect in His generations, and walked with God."
And then you wrote :
"And this sinful, undeserving person, Noah, found favour / grace in the eyes of the Lord."
These two sentences are quite contradictory. In fact they suggest God chose Noah ONLY because he was the following:
1) He was Just
2) Noah was Perfect
3) Noah walked with God ( Obedience)
In my view Noah had worked v hard on himself to reach where he was when God elected him . God chose him from all others for above mentioned qualities he possessed.
What I do not understand is why do we Christians shy away from accepting that there is no salvation without obedience?
(John 14:15, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 3:35)
Noah was saved/ chosen only because He was doing the Will of God
Im glad you put this post Lilac ??

Hello Rajesh, nice to meet you and thank you for reacting.

The point my pastor was making, is that:

verse 7: God wanted to destroy ALL the inhabitants of the earth (including Noah)
verse 8: but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (in other words, God chose Noah to be saved, although he too, would have deserved to drown )
verse 9: THEN, because Noah encountered the grace of God, he was able to become a just man in the first place.

Not the other way round. Cause 8 comes before 9, right?

What you say, counts in my understanding for all other religions. Not so for Christianity? If I were a 'good' person, I would not need a Jesus to 'save' me.
In other words: If I can be 100% obedient and do the 'right' things, I don't need to be chosen by God.

Blessing.

 

[Lilac]

What I do not understand is why do we Christians shy away from accepting that there is no salvation without obedience?

I can only start being obedient once (after) I am saved, by the grace of God and Jesus' blood, and the power of the Holy Spirit. That is in essence, the mystery of the Christian faith / gospel / believer.

 

[brightfame52]

I can only start being obedient once (after) I am saved, by the grace of God and Jesus' blood, and the power of the Holy Spirit. That is in essence, the mystery of the Christian faith / gospel / believer.

I can agree with this statement

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul says in Romans 6:23 "Salvation is a free Gift of God"

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of god is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

Paul mentions this thought few more times like in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24 etc.

But, while reading Luke recently I realized Jesus completely rejects that (Paul’s) claim in Luke 14:25-34 --- by stating the LARGE COST of becoming His disciple—be ready to give up EVERYTHING warns/ counsels the Lord if you want to become my disciple. Exactly what Jesus had told the rich man in the rich man and Jesus incident ( it is not a parable) (Mark 10:17–31).

Christ again teaches the same message in "The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price " in Matthew 13:45-46

Let us read the Lord’s words in Luke 14:25-33 (New International Version)

The Cost of Being a Disciple

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."
Far from being a free gift, even to become a disciple of Christ requires us to be ready to give up ALL – including our LIVES--- if needed (Luke 14:26, 33), says the Lord, else He does NOT want us to be His disciple.
Most definitely NOT a free Gift by any stretch of the imagination, as Paul taught.

Christ gave up his all for us and now wants OUR ALL in case we wish to become His disciple, was what I got from Christ's words in the above mentioned Luke passage. This begs the question How/ Why was Paul was teaching Salvation is a free gift? And I feel cheated that almost every Church I have been to over past 15 years teach the same falsehood ---” Salvation is a free Gift of God, all you have to do is believe” But I ( now) do not believe the Churches! I believe what Jesus taught --- He IS the messiah. He IS the architect of the rules of salvation. He died for us on the Cross. Nobody else did. He does not agree it's a free gift.
This misteaching(s) ( of many Churches)is one of the most important reasons that I love our website here. This IS my real Church because the “real Churches” did NOT teach the truth. Jesus’ words in Matthew 15:14 summarizes their teachings for me now :
“Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Would invite thoughts ( backed with scripture please ?) on this important doctrinal question.
Many thanks in advance. Submitted in respect and love...Raj

Looking at it from a spiritual perspective vs fleshly perspective to get the difference .
Two different types of "costs" & " gifts being spoken about here.
One earthly the other heavenly.
One carnal the other spiritual .
As well as pre-Calvary vs post-Calvary costs .
A good example of the spiritual perspective would be the widows two mites Jesus took note of .
To the wealthy elite the cost of what this widow had given was not even worthy of comparing to the riches they had given.
Yet Jesus said those two mites were worth more to God than the great riches these others had given .

What you have not factored in is the fact that Jesus was speaking to people pre-Calvary and Paul was speaking to people post-Calvary .
No small detail in terms of an, earthly cost vs eternal riches, equation .
Jesus was speaking of " cost " in terms of what the flesh values to people who had no concept of the eternal riches , & never failing bountiful goodness of the one all inclusive of Risen Christ , who is blessing & riches sufficient to meet our every need .
They had no clue of what was about to be the promised eternal inheritance in Him post-Calvary.
Paul on the other hand was speaking to people who were eyewitness to one who could only be the Son Of God
giving The greatest gift ever known , Himself, upon the cross, once to the world through Him , and the treasure of the risen Christ & Holy Spirit ever renewing the gift of Himself to all who will receive Him .

" Verily I say unto you that this poor widow hath cast more in than all
they which have cast into the treasury ."
( Mark 12:43 )

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Who do the Apostles promote, fred flintsone ?

What is the Criterion/ Metric Jesus used Bright. Requesting a straightforward reply rather than sarcasm. Let's not digress bro

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I can agree with this statement

How was Good Samaritan lifted high by the Lord? He was part pagan and "unsaved"
Q# 2 for you : What metric did God use to choose Noah and what was the reason he wiped out the entire mankind through flood?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hello Rajesh, nice to meet you and thank you for reacting.

The point my pastor was making, is that:

verse 7: God wanted to destroy ALL the inhabitants of the earth (including Noah)
verse 8: but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (in other words, God chose Noah to be saved, although he too, would have deserved to drown )
verse 9: THEN, because Noah encountered the grace of God, he was able to become a just man in the first place.

Not the other way round. Cause 8 comes before 9, right?

What you say, counts in my understanding for all other religions. Not so for Christianity? If I were a 'good' person, I would not need a Jesus to 'save' me.
In other words: If I can be 100% obedient and do the 'right' things, I don't need to be chosen by God.

Blessing.

Hi Lilac ? Nice 2 meet you as well
Thank you 4 sharing. As I read all these disturbing posts , some of them have placed even the Lord of the Universe ( Jeremiah 23:24, John 10:30) with mere mortals, the reason is being the doctrine that is being taught in the Churches . Its so toxic and far from truth ?.
I asked a simple question what metric did ( will) Christ use to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. All I get is verses in different books of Bible ??
Why can't I get one person to answer me? The answer is simple Lilac : your Pastor is not teaching what Jesus taught. And he is not the only one. There are tens of thousands of them out there , who are teaching the Solafide doctrine which ended ( will end) in condemnation for millions on the last day. Ask your pastor please this question requesting a straight answer rather than providing ten other verses in ten other books , and that will not yet answer WHAT METRIC DID CHRIST USE ON THE KLAST DAY TO SAVE/ CONDEMN.
That being said I see that the cancer of Solafide doctrine has gone deep into hearts n minds n souls of many, thanks to this twisted teaching, you obey after saved. As if the pastors have become Jesus who is the ONLY one who knows who is saved or not. Anyway in Matthew 25:31-46 lies the key to exposing this evil being taught and believed ? by hundreds of millions across the world

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I can only start being obedient once (after) I am saved, by the grace of God and Jesus' blood, and the power of the Holy Spirit. That is in essence, the mystery of the Christian faith / gospel / believer.

It is not mystery of Christian faith. It is the evil deception that was painted by twisting the straightforward message of Faith, Repentance, Obedience , all culminating in selfless acts of loving - compassion, to the " believe and get saved" evil mess that our beloved Christianity has become

 

[brightfame52]

What is the Criterion/ Metric Jesus used Bright. Requesting a straightforward reply rather than sarcasm. Let's not digress bro

Who do the Apostles promote ? Do you have more spiritual knowledge and understanding of the things Christ did and taught ? In the book of Acts it opens Acts 1:1

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Who do the Apostles promote ? Do you have more spiritual knowledge and understanding of the things Christ did and taught ? In the book of Acts it opens Acts 1:1

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Why don't you give me a straight answer for Christ's sake! ( pun intended ?)
WHAT. METRIC. WILL. JESUS. USE.ON.THE.LAST. DAY. TO SAVE. OR. CONDEMN?
Pls no digression. because in (through) this vision of judgment day scene Christ exposed all the fallacy and and falsehood and deception of the Solafide Doctrine.
I can help you with the answer Bright ?.
Faith ( alone) was NOT used

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Why don't you give me a straight answer for Christ's sake! ( pun intended ?)
WHAT. METRIC. WILL. JESUS. USE.ON.THE.LAST. DAY. TO SAVE. OR. CONDEMN?
Pls no digression. because in (through) this vision of judgment day scene Christ exposed all the fallacy and and falsehood and deception of the Solafide Doctrine.
I can help you with the answer Bright ?.
Faith ( alone) was NOT used

All this useful debate leads me to think it is high time people like JLB, sister Wondering start teaching the Truths of Christian faith( some others too who hold obedience as vital ingredient in the salvation doctrine taught by Christ) .
And ones like the website owner Stove Bolts who is reluctant even to accept donations! Because ( as mentioned before) he wishes NOT to serve the demonic god of wealth, Mammon, mentioned by Christ in Matthew 6:24.
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” King James Version (KJV)

We want Christians as these who don't merely believe but OBEY as well, just as Dr Christ Rx -ed in John 14:15
These are the kind of Christians who should start teaching a whole new generation of new Christians, so that those poor souls may know the real truths of God rather than get infected with this cancer of " just believe and go to heaven" being taught rampantly. That is exactly what the evil one wanted anyway: For us to just believe but not to Obey ( think Adam n Eve)
But here is the solution. Once again it's from Christ in Mark 2:22 : " And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins.”
New generation of Christians are the New wineskins and Christians like JLB , Sister Wondering, Stove Bolts should lead the TEACHING and edification of the new generation. Accurate, Sober, and Christ-based/ oriented teaching
The new Generation being fresh and uninfected will quickly grasp the vital importance of obedience. And finally after 2000 years or two days In God's time ( 2 Peter 3:8 , Psalm 90:4 ). In other words the correction is COMING / RISING on the third day!
For we just Believe but do NOT Trust Jesus, what have we accomplished? And the proof of that trust lies in DOING what He commanded us to (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, Matthew 19:17

Luke 6:46 )​

I will end this post with the exhortation of Christ --- an appeal to me and you brethren -- please consider it.. I'm willing to beg you....???
Jesus in Matthew 19:17: "If you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again I repeat sir, Jesus's words Trump every other writer in NT

Your theology is based on the idea that much of the New Testament is to be ignored. The presupposition of Christians is the the Bible is 100% true and that God does not contradict himself. Further discussion seems pointless unless this basic foundation of the understanding of God's word is agreed to.

*************************************

In regards to salvation by WORKS. Many consider this a dangerous game to play:

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. AMP

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him.” Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “as long as they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul came to faith he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works for salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them.

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ; and not for the sake of their own works.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11 ). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

Aside: Works the the EFFECT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Your theology is based on the idea that much of the New Testament is to be ignored. The presupposition of Christians is the the Bible is 100% true and that God does not contradict himself. Further discussion seems pointless unless this basic foundation of the understanding of God's word is agreed to.

*************************************

In regards to salvation by WORKS. Many consider this a dangerous game to play:

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. AMP

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him.” Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “as long as they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul came to faith he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works for salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them.

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ; and not for the sake of their own works.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11 ). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

Aside: Works the the EFFECT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

So what should we do with judgment day vision Jesus provided ? Should we disregard it ? Do you realize how dangerous that is?
You talk about "works based salvation " let us examine what the Lord of the Universe , the Face of God ( John 10 :30) , the Lamb of God who is the ONLY one who died for Human sins, says after completing His marathon teaching on the Mount . He is the Real Deal . He dwarfs everyone else . His words must obscure every other word spoken. Because He is the Word, He IS the Salvation, He IS GRACE. it is extremely painful for me to even think who are others compared to this trillions and zillions unending infinite God ( Jeremiah 23:24) who is Love and Unfailing Love .


Nobody else did. If you're telling me to disregard His words, just because Jesus's words DO NOT fit into the evil doctrine of Solafide, what kind of Christian am I? No sir . You're welcome to do that. Like I said

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Your theology is based on the idea that much of the New Testament is to be ignored. The presupposition of Christians is the the Bible is 100% true and that God does not contradict himself. Further discussion seems pointless unless this basic foundation of the understanding of God's word is agreed to.

*************************************

In regards to salvation by WORKS. Many consider this a dangerous game to play:

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. AMP

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.



Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11 ). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

Aside: Works the the EFFECT of salvation, not the CAUSE

Your theology is based on the idea that much of the New Testament is to be ignored. The presupposition of Christians is the the Bible is 100% true and that God does not contradict himself. Further discussion seems pointless unless this basic foundation of the understanding of God's word is agreed to.

*************************************

In regards to salvation by WORKS. Many consider this a dangerous game to play:

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. AMP

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Aside: Works the the EFFECT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

Obedience is the effect of salvation....
Can I ask you two questions please Fredy?
1) In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, what metric did Jesus use to save the part Jew , part Pagan idol worshipping Samaritan? And not only does He lift Him like a beacon for us but also alluded Himself to the Samaritan . So HOW was the Good Samaritan saved?
2) After completing His longest ( and to me the most beautiful) piece of teaching Jesus issues a huge caveat at the end of it ( Sermon on the Mount--- Matthew 7: 24-27). One can also call it a stern warning :

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Question for you Fredy is why was Jesus issuing warning of condemnation to EVERYONE who does not implement / obey His teachings / commandments?
( you have unfortunately even in the present post not replied ? what metric Jesus use on the last day in Sheep and Goats vision. Prayerfully you will reply to these two questions rather than accusing me of teaching/ promoting "Works Based Salvation". If you have no answer to Sheep and Goats vision question , I completely understand because it goes way beyond the teaching and purview of Solafide doctrine and hence all those who believe in that doctrine have NO answer to Goats and Sheep question. The reason being Jesus never taught Solafide doctrine. His doctrine was twisted and converted into Solafide doctrine, which failed miserably on the last day)

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Your theology is based on the idea that much of the New Testament is to be ignored. The presupposition of Christians is the the Bible is 100% true and that God does not contradict himself. Further discussion seems pointless unless this basic foundation of the understanding of God's word is agreed to.

*************************************

In regards to salvation by WORKS. Many consider this a dangerous game to play:

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. AMP

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him.” Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “as long as they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul came to faith he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works for salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them.

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ; and not for the sake of their own works.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11 ). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

Aside: Works the the EFFECT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

It is not at all my objective to put you or anyone on a spot. But unless we are able to understand the fakeness of Solafide doctrine, who will care to examine what was Christ's salvation doctrine?
It was Love .... Turning away from sin and turning to Love ....pure unconditional Godly love That was the Salvation Doctrine of Christ. Check out these verses please ?
(Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 5: 42-46, 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16, Matthew 25:31-46, Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37, Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8)
God is Love

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It is not at all my objective to put you or anyone on a spot. But unless we are able to understand the fakeness of Solafide doctrine, who will care to examine what was Christ's salvation doctrine?
It was Love .... Turning away from sin and turning to Love ....pure unconditional Godly love That was the Salvation Doctrine of Christ. Check out these verses please ?
(Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 5: 42-46, 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16, Matthew 25:31-46, Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37, Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8)
God is Love

I don't understand how any of these Scriptures contradict what Paul teaches.
Soli Deo gloria is also part of the teachings from the reformation.
It is by grace you are saved through faith....
What's the problem?
Jesus said many times "You're faith has saved you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again I repeat sir, Jesus's words Trump every other writer in NT

He dwarfs everyone else . His words must obscure every other word spoken.

You have a gaping hole in your theology. ALL of the Bible is inspired by God. You CANNOT disregard parts because they were not the direct words of Christ. Where do you think the words of Christ came from when the writer was inspired to write scripture ... it was from God; God inspires all scripture. It is not like God inspires someone to write what Christ said and then God inspires Paul to write something that lacks the same authority. I doubt you can find ANYONE that agrees with you.
2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

He is the Real Deal . He dwarfs everyone else

Christ do not Dwarf Himself. All scripture is written by God.

If you're telling me to disregard His words

This I am not doing. I am saying God does not contradict Himself and that the entire Bible is God's words. From this truth one knows that if one section of scripture seems to contradict another portion of scripture you must conclude your interpretation of one or both sections you are comparing is INCORRECT.
Thus I can say that the statements in scripture saying one is not saved by WORKS must be explained by you when you say people are saved by works.

Consider
Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith