Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Christ_empowered]

More than once, and before my trust was fully in Jesus, I cried to God because there was no one faithful I could trust nor turn to for TRUTH.
This is necessary in everyone's life if they turn to Jesus.
They must give up everything, as Jesus says, to be His.

I kind of think Jesus Christ pruned some believers out of my life so I would focus more on Him…

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

This "bearing witness" is not an amorphous inner sense or impression, but is the result of the Spirit's life and work in me. I know I'm God's child, a "temple" of the Holy Spirit, not because I feel strongly that I am, but because I see the concrete evidence of the Spirit within in His conviction, illumination, strengthening, comforting and transformation of me (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; John 14:6; John 14:26; John 16:8-13; Ephesians 3:16; Philippians 2:13; Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, etc.). I know the Spirit's made of me his "temple" because I desire (love) God in increasing measure, I have a self-sacrificing love of the brethren, a hunger for God's word, and a desire for a holy life (Romans 5:5; 1 John 3:14; Jeremiah 15:16; Ephesians 5:1-13). As I observe these things within myself, the Spirit "bears witness with my spirit," he gives me concrete cause for legitimate confidence that I am God's child. No mere "inner feeling of confidence" existing independently of these things can do this.

Paul wrote that believers could "examine (test) themselves whether they be in the faith." They could do the same with him, too:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

In context, Paul was writing about coming to the Corinthian believers who were "seeking proof of the Christ who speaks in me" with observable spiritual "power."

2 Corinthians 13:3-4
3 since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

Like Christ, Paul was physically "weak," but not in spiritual power, which he warned here he would direct toward the Corinthian believers when he visited them (see verse 10). He had already been among them, preaching and teaching in the power of the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

When, then, Paul spoke to the Corinthian believers about "testing yourselves whether you be in the faith" it was in the context of having demonstrated to them the power of the Spirit overtly and concretely and warning them that he would come to them in such power again, either in discipline or encouragement. Did they have the same manifestation of the Spirit's life and work, his power, in themselves? It was this overt, concrete manifestation of his power by which they could "test themselves" (and Paul), not merely a strong, inner impression of their spirit.

Concerning the "in-the-mind voice of the Spirit," I would urge you to search God's word for a single instance where such a thing is explicitly stated as the means of God's communication to people. This "inner voice" thing is assumed, but, though many descriptions of how God has communicated are given in Scripture - burning bushes, angels, dreams/visions, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an audible voice speaking from the mouth of cave, or from the air over a downed Saul of Tarsus - not once does Scripture plainly state that God communicated via a whispering "inner voice."

I guess I just don't know what you're referring to when you say "in-the-mind voice of the Spirit". It sounds like you mean that God does not communicate directly with people, but only indirectly. But then you talk about Him convicting you, illuminating you, and comforting you. Those things sound like you believe He is communicating directly with you. Are you just objecting to the concept that His voice can be "heard" in the mind, or do you reject altogether that He communicates directly with us?

 

[Tenchi]

I guess I just don't know what you're referring to when you say "in-the-mind voice of the Spirit". It sounds like you mean that God does not communicate directly with people, but only indirectly. But then you talk about Him convicting you, illuminating you, and comforting you. Those things sound like you believe He is communicating directly with you. Are you just objecting to the concept that His voice can be "heard" in the mind, or do you reject altogether that He communicates directly with us?

Yes, God communicates with me directly. His conviction, for example, works in tandem with my conscience, my God-given moral sense, that "pricks" me when I sin. But instead of mere guiltiness and the hiding that happened in Eden with Adam and Eve, the Spirit works to form in me, God's born-again child, a desire for reconciliation with God. When the Spirit convicts, he uses my pricks of conscience to propel me toward God rather than away. This is how I can distinguish the mere shame and guilt any unsaved person may feel from what the Spirit does in His conviction of me, a saved person.

This convicting by the Spirit doesn't happen, though, by way of a "voice in my head" that whispers to me that I ought not to have done what I did. In my own self-talk in my mind, I might form this thought to myself, but I shouldn't say this is the Holy Spirit "talking to me" just because it aligns with God's moral/spiritual command. I'm willing to grant, as Scripture does, that the Spirit will bring to my mind an appropriate pertinent verse or passage from Scripture when acting to convict me of my sin - if I've bothered to study and memorize God's word (John 14:26).

The Spirit's strengthening of me is another good example of how the Spirit distinguishes his work in me from my own religious/pious self-effort. Again, he doesn't strengthen me by whispering encouraging words in my mind, or giving me a feeling of power. Instead, he waits 'til I agree to his full control of me, which I give by conscious, explicit submission to him (James 4:6-10; Romans 12:1; Romans 6:13-22), and then acts to move me through moments of temptation and trial, doing so with such power I don't realize he is so moving me. Over and over again, it's only in looking back from well beyond the moment of temptation/trial that I realize it's been many hours sometimes since the moment had confronted me!

I'm always astonished at the effortlessness of living under the Spirit's control and power. For many decades, I was of the mind that I had to strive mightily with myself, forcing myself to God's will and way, making myself do "the right thing." But when I am living under the control of the Spirit and he moves me along, further and further, into God's will, I am not exhausted, nor cycling constantly and quickly into sin, but going "from strength to strength" (Psalm 84:7) "mounting up with wings as eagles" (Isaiah 40:31) growing into a godly man as surely - though imperceptibly and naturally - as a branch in the vine (John 15:4-5).

Most importantly, when the Spirit strengthens me, he increases my experience and knowledge of himself, of God. Humans can affect quite a lot of change quite apart from God; Christians, too, can make changes, at least superficially, to their behavior without God's involvement. But when they do, they know only more about themselves, not God. Unfortunately, because they attribute their self-effort to the Holy Spirit and that effort is necessarily limited and self-centered, they come to have a very diminished and twisted idea of the power of God. What they call the power of God, though, is no such thing, but merely their weak, human counterfeit of the Real Thing. When the power of the Spirit acts to move God's child into a holier, godlier, more Christ-centered life, there is boundless power at work that leads the believer deeper into strength, not moral and spiritual exhaustion and ever-expanding vistas of experience of God.

So, the Spirit is "communicating" with me in his strengthening of me, but not with actual words in my mind that I must train assiduously to hear. The Spirit "bears witness with my spirit" that I'm a child of God, that he's within me, quite apart from a whispering voice in my head, teaching, changing, empowering, comforting and convicting me by other means entirely.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God communicates with me directly. His conviction, for example, works in tandem with my conscience, my God-given moral sense, that "pricks" me when I sin. But instead of mere guiltiness and the hiding that happened in Eden with Adam and Eve, the Spirit works to form in me, God's born-again child, a desire for reconciliation with God. When the Spirit convicts, he uses my pricks of conscience to propel me toward God rather than away. This is how I can distinguish the mere shame and guilt any unsaved person may feel from what the Spirit does in His conviction of me, a saved person.

This convicting by the Spirit doesn't happen, though, by way of a "voice in my head" that whispers to me that I ought not to have done what I did. In my own self-talk in my mind, I might form this thought to myself, but I shouldn't say this is the Holy Spirit "talking to me" just because it aligns with God's moral/spiritual command. I'm willing to grant, as Scripture does, that the Spirit will bring to my mind an appropriate pertinent verse or passage from Scripture when acting to convict me of my sin - if I've bothered to study and memorize God's word (John 14:26).

The Spirit's strengthening of me is another good example of how the Spirit distinguishes his work in me from my own religious/pious self-effort. Again, he doesn't strengthen me by whispering encouraging words in my mind, or giving me a feeling of power. Instead, he waits 'til I agree to his full control of me, which I give by conscious, explicit submission to him (James 4:6-10; Romans 12:1; Romans 6:13-22), and then acts to move me through moments of temptation and trial, doing so with such power I don't realize he is so moving me. Over and over again, it's only in looking back from well beyond the moment of temptation/trial that I realize it's been many hours sometimes since the moment had confronted me!

I'm always astonished at the effortlessness of living under the Spirit's control and power. For many decades, I was of the mind that I had to strive mightily with myself, forcing myself to God's will and way, making myself do "the right thing." But when I am living under the control of the Spirit and he moves me along, further and further, into God's will, I am not exhausted, nor cycling constantly and quickly into sin, but going "from strength to strength" (Psalm 84:7) "mounting up with wings as eagles" (Isaiah 40:31) growing into a godly man as surely - though imperceptibly and naturally - as a branch in the vine (John 15:4-5).

Most importantly, when the Spirit strengthens me, he increases my experience and knowledge of himself, of God. Humans can affect quite a lot of change quite apart from God; Christians, too, can make changes, at least superficially, to their behavior without God's involvement. But when they do, they know only more about themselves, not God. Unfortunately, because they attribute their self-effort to the Holy Spirit and that effort is necessarily limited and self-centered, they come to have a very diminished and twisted idea of the power of God. What they call the power of God, though, is no such thing, but merely their weak, human counterfeit of the Real Thing. When the power of the Spirit acts to move God's child into a holier, godlier, more Christ-centered life, there is boundless power at work that leads the believer deeper into strength, not moral and spiritual exhaustion and ever-expanding vistas of experience of God.

So, the Spirit is "communicating" with me in his strengthening of me, but not with actual words in my mind that I must train assiduously to hear. The Spirit "bears witness with my spirit" that I'm a child of God, that he's within me, quite apart from a whispering voice in my head, teaching, changing, empowering, comforting and convicting me by other means entirely.

Great post, as usual.
It would make a good thread.
How God speaks to us...?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Yes, God communicates with me directly. His conviction, for example, works in tandem with my conscience, my God-given moral sense, that "pricks" me when I sin. But instead of mere guiltiness and the hiding that happened in Eden with Adam and Eve, the Spirit works to form in me, God's born-again child, a desire for reconciliation with God. When the Spirit convicts, he uses my pricks of conscience to propel me toward God rather than away. This is how I can distinguish the mere shame and guilt any unsaved person may feel from what the Spirit does in His conviction of me, a saved person.

This convicting by the Spirit doesn't happen, though, by way of a "voice in my head" that whispers to me that I ought not to have done what I did. In my own self-talk in my mind, I might form this thought to myself, but I shouldn't say this is the Holy Spirit "talking to me" just because it aligns with God's moral/spiritual command. I'm willing to grant, as Scripture does, that the Spirit will bring to my mind an appropriate pertinent verse or passage from Scripture when acting to convict me of my sin - if I've bothered to study and memorize God's word (John 14:26).

Thanks for the clarification. I don't hear God's voice most of the time either.

When I went to buy a specific new car in 1992, God didn't speak to me in words I could hear in my head. But I knew He was telling me not to buy that car. I sluffed it off and purchased it anyway. That car and its replacement turned out to be lemons. When I wanted to trade in the second, He made it clear that He didn't want me to do it. Again, it wasn't a voice in my head but I knew He was telling me what to do. This time I listened. Several times every year after that, I would ask God if I could get rid of that car, and every time the answer was, "no" (but no voice in my head). That went on for more than about a decade and a half until one time the answer was "yes". It was so different a response that I asked again, "Lord, am I hearing you right?" The car I purchased that week has been a great car ever since.

On another occasion, I was driving home from a visit with my parents in the mid 1980's when I noticed I was praying (silently), "Lord, if you don't want me to be an outreach leader, just let me know". A few seconds later, I prayed the same thing. Then again. After the third or fourth time, I was like, "Lord, what is going on here?" Then I heard Him say, "I don't want you to be an outreach leader any more" (or something close to that). Then, I repeated my answer and He repeated His command. It was only then that I realized God had initiated the conversation and I was aware only of my side of it until He reveald His half to me. Then my answer changed. It became, "If you don't want me to be an outreach leader any more, then I will quit because I'm only doing it because you wanted me to do it in the first place." So I quit. When a person in the singles department said, "You don't want to serve the Lord any more?", I said, "This is the definition of 'Serving the Lord'. He said quit, so I quit".

On another occasion, I think it was in the early 2010's, I was on my way to the elevator at work when I began to form answers in my head to one of my co-workers telling me he would grade me well on a 360 review if I'd do the same. I formulated and tossed several answers before I settled on one. I had thought about dismissing the conversation I was having with myself because it sounded silly to be thinking about it out of the blue, but decided to game it out anyway. As soon as I sat down in my chair, the co-worker came into my office and asked the very question for which I had been formulating an answer. I didn't need to think about it at all, I gave him the answer I already had. After thinking about this incident for a little while, I realized it was not a coincidence, but it was God preparing me ahead of time to properly deal with what He knew was coming.

I could tell you many other stories. There are too many to write down. They happen every day. God is actively involved in our lives. He leads us, guides us, directs us, teaches us, corrects us, comforts us, and yes, He warns us of things to come. These direct communications do not come into our minds directly, they come directly from the Spirit of God into our spirits, and they find their way into our thoughts. This is where "faith" is necessary. When we "hear" Him, we need to "trust" what He is saying. And not only that, we must "act" on it as well. I should not have purchased that car, but I was right in not purchasing another one until He approved. I was right to stop being an outreach leader. And, I was right in gaming out that answer to my co-worker. It is when we "hear" Him, "trust" Him, and "walk" as He directs that we fulfill our great calling.

Back to the OP for a moment. I don't have a great deal of experience with apostate churches or church leaders. But I do know that God is the most trustworthy person in the universe. So my answer is that it is always right to trust the Lord and do as He directs. I know from experience that undoing false doctrine can be painful and may take a long time, but it is worth it in the long run.

 

[Tenchi]

On another occasion, I was driving home from a visit with my parents in the mid 1980's when I noticed I was praying (silently), "Lord, if you don't want me to be an outreach leader, just let me know". A few seconds later, I prayed the same thing. Then again. After the third or fourth time, I was like, "Lord, what is going on here?" Then I heard Him say, "I don't want you to be an outreach leader any more" (or something close to that). Then, I repeated my answer and He repeated His command. It was only then that I realized God had initiated the conversation and I was aware only of my side of it until He reveald His half to me. Then my answer changed. It became, "If you don't want me to be an outreach leader any more, then I will quit because I'm only doing it because you wanted me to do it in the first place." So I quit. When a person in the singles department said, "You don't want to serve the Lord any more?", I said, "This is the definition of 'Serving the Lord'. He said quit, so I quit".

On another occasion, I think it was in the early 2010's, I was on my way to the elevator at work when I began to form answers in my head to one of my co-workers telling me he would grade me well on a 360 review if I'd do the same. I formulated and tossed several answers before I settled on one. I had thought about dismissing the conversation I was having with myself because it sounded silly to be thinking about it out of the blue, but decided to game it out anyway. As soon as I sat down in my chair, the co-worker came into my office and asked the very question for which I had been formulating an answer. I didn't need to think about it at all, I gave him the answer I already had. After thinking about this incident for a little while, I realized it was not a coincidence, but it was God preparing me ahead of time to properly deal with what He knew was coming.

I could tell you many other stories. There are too many to write down. They happen every day. God is actively involved in our lives. He leads us, guides us, directs us, teaches us, corrects us, comforts us, and yes, He warns us of things to come. These direct communications do not come into our minds directly, they come directly from the Spirit of God into our spirits, and they find their way into our thoughts. This is where "faith" is necessary. When we "hear" Him, we need to "trust" what He is saying. And not only that, we must "act" on it as well. I should not have purchased that car, but I was right in not purchasing another one until He approved. I was right to stop being an outreach leader. And, I was right in gaming out that answer to my co-worker. It is when we "hear" Him, "trust" Him, and "walk" as He directs that we fulfill our great calling.

I once had a Christian man in spiritual crisis press me on this sort of thinking that is so common among Christians. He asked, "How do you know on any objective, clearly-distinguishable basis, that God is directing you? How do you know that the impressions and thoughts you're having about various things that you think are from God actually are? How do you distinguish such things that are actually from you (or maybe even from the devil) from what is actually from God? If you can't make such a distinction, how can you say confidently that anything you say is God really is?"

Good questions, I thought. Important ones. How would you answer his questions?

I had a lady say to me in defense of her claim that the Spirit had "spoken" to her that she "just knew" that he had. To her, it was totally obvious that he had done so and would be obvious to me, too, if only I was as "tuned in" spiritually as she was. I replied to her by asking her the following: "If an atheist said to you, 'God doesn't exist,' and you asked him how he knew this and he replied, 'I just know,' would you accept his answer as a reasonable, solid basis for his atheistic claim?"

She said, "No, of course not. I know God exists."

I responded, "But the atheist is using the very same reasoning that you use in claiming God spoke to you. Why can you use this sort of reasoning in defense of your claim but the atheist cannot in defense of his?"

She didn't have a good answer and resorted finally to repeating herself: "Well, I just know. And nothing you can say will make me believe otherwise."

I find it very unhelpful for Christians to talk about God's leading in the profoundly subjective way in which they typically do, never offering any reasonable, objective (and biblical) basis for how they know for certain God is leading them and not their own self-talk, or a demonic deception.

The stories you've offered above, are very subjective, and seem to assume that, so long as you were convinced that God was speaking to you, He was. You say you don't hear God's voice (most of the time), but offer stories where you frame your interactions with God in this very way.

When I went to buy a specific new car in 1992, God didn't speak to me in words I could hear in my head. But I knew He was telling me not to buy that car. I sluffed it off and purchased it anyway. That car and its replacement turned out to be lemons. When I wanted to trade in the second, He made it clear that He didn't want me to do it. Again, it wasn't a voice in my head but I knew He was telling me what to do. This time I listened.

I guess you don't see how confusing your story is. "God didn't speak to me in words" is followed by "I knew He was telling me..." What do you mean, exactly, that God "made it clear" what He wanted you to do but not with a "voice in my head...telling me what to do"? How does God tell you something apart from speaking to you in words? Is there any direction, especially of a detailed sort and coming to you in an entirely immaterial, non-physical way, any other person can issue to you without words? How do you comprehend such direction? Can directions even exist separate from language, from words, in which, it seems to me, they must be framed?

I don't mean to nitpick contentiously. It's just in my work as a discipler of men for some thirty years now, I have had to explain often to new believers, and long-time but immature believers, this matter of God's communication and leading who were not going to accept the common but very confusing and highly-subjective "I just know" approach many believers adopt in their walk with God. Especially new, adult believers are able to pick out the glaring problems and dangers with the enormous subjectivity that characterizes this area of Christian thought and practice.

Your other stories contain the same confusing and seemingly contradictory ways of talking about how God communicated to you. I refer you, then, to the questions at the top of this post and look forward to your answers.

 

[Tenchi]

Great post, as usual.
It would make a good thread.
How God speaks to us...?

It would, wouldn't it?

 

[hawkman]

This article at this link speaks of what we are discussing in this thread .

The Holy Spirit Leads and Guides us into Spiritual Perception

 

[GodsGrace]

It would, wouldn't it?

Yes!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I once had a Christian man in spiritual crisis press me on this sort of thinking that is so common among Christians. He asked, "How do you know on any objective, clearly-distinguishable basis, that God is directing you? How do you know that the impressions and thoughts you're having about various things that you think are from God actually are? How do you distinguish such things that are actually from you (or maybe even from the devil) from what is actually from God? If you can't make such a distinction, how can you say confidently that anything you say is God really is?"

Good questions, I thought. Important ones. How would you answer his questions?

I had a lady say to me in defense of her claim that the Spirit had "spoken" to her that she "just knew" that he had. To her, it was totally obvious that he had done so and would be obvious to me, too, if only I was as "tuned in" spiritually as she was. I replied to her by asking her the following: "If an atheist said to you, 'God doesn't exist,' and you asked him how he knew this and he replied, 'I just know,' would you accept his answer as a reasonable, solid basis for his atheistic claim?"

She said, "No, of course not. I know God exists."

I responded, "But the atheist is using the very same reasoning that you use in claiming God spoke to you. Why can you use this sort of reasoning in defense of your claim but the atheist cannot in defense of his?"

She didn't have a good answer and resorted finally to repeating herself: "Well, I just know. And nothing you can say will make me believe otherwise."

I find it very unhelpful for Christians to talk about God's leading in the profoundly subjective way in which they typically do, never offering any reasonable, objective (and biblical) basis for how they know for certain God is leading them and not their own self-talk, or a demonic deception.

The stories you've offered above, are very subjective, and seem to assume that, so long as you were convinced that God was speaking to you, He was. You say you don't hear God's voice (most of the time), but offer stories where you frame your interactions with God in this very way.

I guess you don't see how confusing your story is. "God didn't speak to me in words" is followed by "I knew He was telling me..." What do you mean, exactly, that God "made it clear" what He wanted you to do but not with a "voice in my head...telling me what to do"? How does God tell you something apart from speaking to you in words? Is there any direction, especially of a detailed sort and coming to you in an entirely immaterial, non-physical way, any other person can issue to you without words? How do you comprehend such direction? Can directions even exist separate from language, from words, in which, it seems to me, they must be framed?

I don't mean to nitpick contentiously. It's just in my work as a discipler of men for some thirty years now, I have had to explain often to new believers, and long-time but immature believers, this matter of God's communication and leading who were not going to accept the common but very confusing and highly-subjective "I just know" approach many believers adopt in their walk with God. Especially new, adult believers are able to pick out the glaring problems and dangers with the enormous subjectivity that characterizes this area of Christian thought and practice.

Your other stories contain the same confusing and seemingly contradictory ways of talking about how God communicated to you. I refer you, then, to the questions at the top of this post and look forward to your answers.

I used those three examples on purpose to draw out a reaction from you so I could better understand your position. So there is no need to apologize.

You said, a man pressed you on "this sort of thinking". You phrased the discussion in terms of a few questions he asked of you. Do you think he really wanted you to tell him how to distinguish God's voice from all others, or do you think he wanted you to affirm his belief that "this sort of thinking" is wrong? Concerning you forwarding his questions to me, I do not think you are really asking me teach you how to distinguish God's voice from all others. I think you are telling me that God does not interact with people the way I describe, that being subjective it can't be proven, and we shouldn't think that way. Having said that, for the benefit of others who may have a genuine interest in the subject, I will address your misconceptions.

First, Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (Jn 10:27) That should settle the issue of whether or not Jesus speaks to us and whether or not we can hear Him.

Second, God's voice sounds the same every time He speaks to us.

• John 6:45 - When we "hear" and "learn" from the Father, we go to Jesus for salvation.
• Galatians 4:6 - It is God's Spirit in us who we hear crying out, "abba, Father".
• Romans 8:23 - Our groanings for the redemption of our bodies is from the Spirit.
• 1 John 2:27 - The Holy Spirit's voice is the one who reveals truths to us and confronts our false beliefs.
• Hebrews 12:5–6 - The Holy Spirit's words correct us when we fail to do what He wishes and when we do what He does not wish.
• Rom. 8:16–17 - The Holy Spirit personally tells us we are His children and that we have an inheritance.

His voice sounds the same when He drew us to Jesus for salvation, when He cries out Abba Father, when we sense the groanings we have for redemption, when he teaches us truths and reveals errors, when He corrects our missteps, and when He tells us we are His children. This is not a complete list. So look for Scriptures that say how God interracts with His children, then look inside to observe if those things are going on inside you.

And finally, when God speaks to us and gives us instructions on any subject, the only acceptable response is to hear Him, to trust Him, and to do what He says.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I used those three examples on purpose to draw out a reaction from you so I could better understand your position. So there is no need to apologize.

You said, a man pressed you on "this sort of thinking". You phrased the discussion in terms of a few questions he asked of you. Do you think he really wanted you to tell him how to distinguish God's voice from all others, or do you think he wanted you to affirm his belief that "this sort of thinking" is wrong? Concerning you forwarding his questions to me, I do not think you are really asking me teach you how to distinguish God's voice from all others. I think you are telling me that God does not interact with people the way I describe, that being subjective it can't be proven, and we shouldn't think that way. Having said that, for the benefit of others who may have a genuine interest in the subject, I will address your misconceptions.

First, Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (Jn 10:27) That should settle the issue of whether or not Jesus speaks to us and whether or not we can hear Him.

Second, God's voice sounds the same every time He speaks to us.

• John 6:45 - When we "hear" and "learn" from the Father, we go to Jesus for salvation.
• Galatians 4:6 - It is God's Spirit in us who we hear crying out, "abba, Father".
• Romans 8:23 - Our groanings for the redemption of our bodies is from the Spirit.
• 1 John 2:27 - The Holy Spirit's voice is the one who reveals truths to us and confronts our false beliefs.
• Hebrews 12:5–6 - The Holy Spirit's words correct us when we fail to do what He wishes and when we do what He does not wish.
• Rom. 8:16–17 - The Holy Spirit personally tells us we are His children and that we have an inheritance.

His voice sounds the same when He drew us to Jesus for salvation, when He cries out Abba Father, when we sense the groanings we have for redemption, when he teaches us truths and reveals errors, when He corrects our missteps, and when He tells us we are His children. This is not a complete list. So look for Scriptures that say how God interracts with His children, then look inside to observe if those things are going on inside you.

And finally, when God speaks to us and gives us instructions on any subject, the only acceptable response is to hear Him, to trust Him, and to do what He says.

I would like to add just one more thought here. It is curious to me that almost every person who pushes back against the concept that God actively communicates with His children from the intimacy of their own hearts (despite all the Scriptural evidence to the contrary) also eagerly accepts the concept that the "voice of God" might actually be the devil's voice (despite almost no scriptural evidence that the devil has this ability).

 

[GodsGrace]

I once had a Christian man in spiritual crisis press me on this sort of thinking that is so common among Christians. He asked, "How do you know on any objective, clearly-distinguishable basis, that God is directing you? How do you know that the impressions and thoughts you're having about various things that you think are from God actually are? How do you distinguish such things that are actually from you (or maybe even from the devil) from what is actually from God? If you can't make such a distinction, how can you say confidently that anything you say is God really is?"

Good questions, I thought. Important ones. How would you answer his questions?

I had a lady say to me in defense of her claim that the Spirit had "spoken" to her that she "just knew" that he had. To her, it was totally obvious that he had done so and would be obvious to me, too, if only I was as "tuned in" spiritually as she was. I replied to her by asking her the following: "If an atheist said to you, 'God doesn't exist,' and you asked him how he knew this and he replied, 'I just know,' would you accept his answer as a reasonable, solid basis for his atheistic claim?"

She said, "No, of course not. I know God exists."

I responded, "But the atheist is using the very same reasoning that you use in claiming God spoke to you. Why can you use this sort of reasoning in defense of your claim but the atheist cannot in defense of his?"

She didn't have a good answer and resorted finally to repeating herself: "Well, I just know. And nothing you can say will make me believe otherwise."

I find it very unhelpful for Christians to talk about God's leading in the profoundly subjective way in which they typically do, never offering any reasonable, objective (and biblical) basis for how they know for certain God is leading them and not their own self-talk, or a demonic deception.

The stories you've offered above, are very subjective, and seem to assume that, so long as you were convinced that God was speaking to you, He was. You say you don't hear God's voice (most of the time), but offer stories where you frame your interactions with God in this very way.



I guess you don't see how confusing your story is. "God didn't speak to me in words" is followed by "I knew He was telling me..." What do you mean, exactly, that God "made it clear" what He wanted you to do but not with a "voice in my head...telling me what to do"? How does God tell you something apart from speaking to you in words? Is there any direction, especially of a detailed sort and coming to you in an entirely immaterial, non-physical way, any other person can issue to you without words? How do you comprehend such direction? Can directions even exist separate from language, from words, in which, it seems to me, they must be framed?

I don't mean to nitpick contentiously. It's just in my work as a discipler of men for some thirty years now, I have had to explain often to new believers, and long-time but immature believers, this matter of God's communication and leading who were not going to accept the common but very confusing and highly-subjective "I just know" approach many believers adopt in their walk with God. Especially new, adult believers are able to pick out the glaring problems and dangers with the enormous subjectivity that characterizes this area of Christian thought and practice.

Your other stories contain the same confusing and seemingly contradictory ways of talking about how God communicated to you. I refer you, then, to the questions at the top of this post and look forward to your answers.

Tenchi,
It's true that this is a topic that interests new believers while they strive to understand what this all means.

Someone should tell them that the reason they've come to God is because He called them and they heard His voice!

However they heard it can be one of those mysteries or it can be very plain and simple as hearing another person speak.

I do believe that there are different ways that God can be heard.
What I find important is to be sure that what He is telling us is biblical and also for our own good.

Satan makes everything seem easy and enjoyable but is poison to us and those around us.
God might seem to be offering something very easy or even a bit difficult, but it's always going to work for the good to us and those around us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would like to add just one more thought here. It is curious to me that almost every person who pushes back against the concept that God actively communicates with His children from the intimacy of their own hearts (despite all the Scriptural evidence to the contrary) also eagerly accepts the concept that the "voice of God" might actually be the devil's voice (despite almost no scriptural evidence that the devil has this ability).

I don't believe the devil speaks to us.
He affects us with evil if we allow him to and uses our sin nature to do this.
Which is why it's good to remember Romans 12:1.
Satan is the prince of the air. This world paradigm belongs to him.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi,
It's true that this is a topic that interests new believers while they strive to understand what this all means.

Someone should tell them that the reason they've come to God is because He called them and they heard His voice!

However they heard it can be one of those mysteries or it can be very plain and simple as hearing another person speak.

I do believe that there are different ways that God can be heard.
What I find important is to be sure that what He is telling us is biblical and also for our own good.

Satan makes everything seem easy and enjoyable but is poison to us and those around us.
God might seem to be offering something very easy or even a bit difficult, but it's always going to work for the good to us and those around us.

I've had this sort of response from many other Christians and it's just as...peculiar to me now in its line of reasoning as it has been in past instances. Believers speak of "God's call" and describe it as mysterious but then talk of testing the origin of this call by God's word. Well, if it's possible to do this, why isn't the "call" of God in His word by which we can test our own "call" from Him sufficient to "call" us?

Imagine that Bob thinks he's "heard from God." He doesn't want to assume anything and make a mistake about what he's heard and from whom, so he goes to his Bible and sees in it the very thing he thinks he's heard from God. Okay. Why not just heed that objective, authoritative, divine direction rather than this mysterious, subjective "call" Bob thinks he's had from God?

I once had a Christian friend tell me that a fellow believer had approached him with a sudden, acute financial need. This person in need wasn't at all in the habit of going to others for money and had never done so, as far as my friend and I knew. A bit piously, my friend said, "Well, I wasn't just going to give him money. Instead, I told my Christian brother in need to wait 'til I'd prayed for God's direction." It was some three days later that my friend finally felt properly "led" to give some money to the Christian brother in need. But, then, there's this:

1 John 3:17
17 ...if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

My friend didn't need a "word from God" on what to do concerning the fellow believer who'd asked for financial help. He already had God's "leading" in Scripture! He should have simply done what God had clearly directed him to do in the situation, not wait on some inner, mysterious "direction from God."

Concerning doing "hard things" for God: If God has something "difficult" for His child to do, something for which He needs to prepare them, He will act as He did in Scripture and provide appropriate "preparation." See Gideon, or Moses, or Paul, or the Twelve. "To whom much is given, much is required."

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I've had this sort of response from many other Christians and it's just as...peculiar to me now in its line of reasoning as it has been in past instances. Believers speak of "God's call" and describe it as mysterious but then talk of testing the origin of this call by God's word. Well, if it's possible to do this, why isn't the "call" of God in His word by which we can test our own "call" from Him sufficient to "call" us?

Imagine that Bob thinks he's "heard from God." He doesn't want to assume anything and make a mistake about what he's heard and from whom, so he goes to his Bible and sees in it the very thing he thinks he's heard from God. Okay. Why not just heed that objective, authoritative, divine direction rather than this mysterious, subjective "call" Bob thinks he's had from God?

I once had a Christian friend tell me that a fellow believer had approached him with a sudden, acute financial need. This person in need wasn't at all in the habit of going to others for money and had never done so, as far as my friend and I knew. A bit piously, my friend said, "Well, I wasn't just going to give him money. Instead, I told my Christian brother in need to wait 'til I'd prayed for God's direction." It was some three days later that my friend finally felt properly "led" to give some money to the Christian brother in need. But, then, there's this:

1 John 3:17
17 ...if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

My friend didn't need a "word from God" on what to do concerning the fellow believer who'd asked for financial help. He already had God's "leading" in Scripture! He should have simply done what God had clearly directed him to do in the situation, not wait on some inner, mysterious "direction from God."

Concerning doing "hard things" for God: If God has something "difficult" for His child to do, something for which He needs to prepare them, He will act as He did in Scripture and provide appropriate "preparation." See Gideon, or Moses, or Paul, or the Twelve. "To whom much is given, much is required."

It appears thay you are saying you a relationship with the Bible but not a personal relationship with God. How do you deal with a Bible full of instructions telling us to go to Him directly? For instance, James does not point people to the Bible but to God Himself when he says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him." (Jas 1:5) Do you just hang your hat on verse 7's admonition to those who refuse to trust the wisdom that God gives: "let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord"?

 

[Tenchi]

It appears thay you are saying you a relationship with the Bible but not a personal relationship with God.

It may appear to you that this is what I'm saying, but it's not actually what I've indicated in my posts.

How do you deal with a Bible full of instructions telling us to go to Him directly? For instance, James does not point people to the Bible but to God Himself when he says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him." (Jas 1:5)

Was the full canon of the NT available when James wrote this verse?

When I ask God for wisdom, I expect Him to answer as I spend time in His word in which He's taken pains to reveal His will to me in various commands, wisdom and spiritual examples and principles. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Psalm 119, Matthew 4:4, 1 Peter 2:2.

Do you just hang your hat on verse 7's admonition to those who refuse to trust the wisdom that God gives: "let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord"?

I don't know what you mean, here....

 

[follower]

Watchman Nee: The Spiritual Man Vol.III Part 8 Chapter 1​

Why is the Christian's mental life so beset by evil spirits? This can be answered in one sentence: believers afford the evil spirits (or the devil) the ...

 

[GodsGrace]

I've had this sort of response from many other Christians and it's just as...peculiar to me now in its line of reasoning as it has been in past instances. Believers speak of "God's call" and describe it as mysterious but then talk of testing the origin of this call by God's word. Well, if it's possible to do this, why isn't the "call" of God in His word by which we can test our own "call" from Him sufficient to "call" us?

I don't mean God's call as a calvinist would mean it.
God calls everyone...some reply, some don't.
To those who reply, God DID call them and the "heard" the call.
This is one way we can "hear" God speaking to us.
Another way is with the heart.
Another way is someone telling us something that makes us become alert/aware of something. This happened with a friend of mine recently - she was doing something wrong and didn't realize it till I mentioned it nicely.
Another way is through the bible...
Or by someone teaching, like you for instance.

What's mysterious to me is that God uses different ways to speak to persons --- maybe what He knows will work best.

Imagine that Bob thinks he's "heard from God." He doesn't want to assume anything and make a mistake about what he's heard and from whom, so he goes to his Bible and sees in it the very thing he thinks he's heard from God. Okay. Why not just heed that objective, authoritative, divine direction rather than this mysterious, subjective "call" Bob thinks he's had from God?

Oh, I could surely agree with the above.
But sometimes you just hear from God and you know it's Him telling you to do or not to do something and it doesn't even need to be looked up in the bible.

I have said though, many times, that our conscience must be formed by Godly instruction because our conscience, otherwise, does not alway work well and sometimes we get what WE want mixed up with what we hear.

I once had a Christian friend tell me that a fellow believer had approached him with a sudden, acute financial need. This person in need wasn't at all in the habit of going to others for money and had never done so, as far as my friend and I knew. A bit piously, my friend said, "Well, I wasn't just going to give him money. Instead, I told my Christian brother in need to wait 'til I'd prayed for God's direction." It was some three days later that my friend finally felt properly "led" to give some money to the Christian brother in need. But, then, there's this:

1 John 3:17
17 ...if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

My friend didn't need a "word from God" on what to do concerning the fellow believer who'd asked for financial help. He already had God's "leading" in Scripture! He should have simply done what God had clearly directed him to do in the situation, not wait on some inner, mysterious "direction from God."

I agree.
Maybe he just needed time to think it over and Christians always refer to be waiting on God. I don't know.
I agree with you.

Concerning doing "hard things" for God: If God has something "difficult" for His child to do, something for which He needs to prepare them, He will act as He did in Scripture and provide appropriate "preparation." See Gideon, or Moses, or Paul, or the Twelve. "To whom much is given, much is required."

Yes. But much is required does require the strength to do it and sometimes we know we need to do it even if we have little strength.

But God does help us in these cases.

 

[GodsGrace]

Watchman Nee: The Spiritual Man Vol.III Part 8 Chapter 1​

Why is the Christian's mental life so beset by evil spirits? This can be answered in one sentence: believers afford the evil spirits (or the devil) the ...

I liked Watchman Nee but don't remember much of what I've read by him.

He speaks of the mind in your link.
I believe this is the soul of man that is being spoken of.
The mind is part of the soul.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Was the full canon of the NT available when James wrote this verse?

This is irrelevant.

When I ask God for wisdom, I expect Him to answer as I spend time in His word in which He's taken pains to reveal His will to me in various commands, wisdom and spiritual examples and principles. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Psalm 119, Matthew 4:4, 1 Peter 2:2.

God did not create anything strong enough to limit His freedom of speech to only Bible verses. But if you ask God for wisdom and He answers you by reminding you of Bible verses, then that's a good place to start recognizing the sound of His voice.