Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[follower]

1 John 3:17
17 ...if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

My friend didn't need a "word from God" on what to do concerning the fellow believer who'd asked for financial help. He already had God's "leading" in Scripture!

People are being tricked by religious leaders and religious teachers not to believe God's Word, and they become stingy and stinky.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

People are being tricked by religious leaders and religious teachers not to believe God's Word, and they become stingy and stinky.

But aren't they more often than not tricked by secular professors and experts? If they become stingy and stinky, it's unfair to blame religious leaders for that.

 

[follower]

But aren't they more often than not tricked by secular professors and experts? If they become stingy and stinky, it's unfair to blame religious leaders for that.

Stick with what God Himself Says. He Is Perfect in Wisdom, in Understanding, and in Judgment. His Word is Truth, unchanging.
in other words, agree with God's Own Judgment and Justice.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Stick with what God Himself Says. He Is Perfect in Wisdom, in Understanding, and in Judgment. His Word is Truth, unchanging.
in other words, agree with God's Own Judgment and Justice.

Well, one kind of his own judgement and justice is giving you up to Satan to teach you a lesson, Rom. 1:24. He removes his divine protection and exposes you to the evil, corrupt worldly influences.

 

[Christian Saboteur]

If a Pastor is delivering biblically sound messages that at a givin time apply to your season in life,then why not accept that message as good advice?.How about asking the Holy Spirit to pass its hand over your head while you sleep to enter unto your head dreams,vision,and insight?,I've tried it,it works!.There is scripture in the bible that speaks about dreams and visions.







The Ohio Resistance.

 

[jasonc]

Praying to give to a member in needed when it's clear is strange ,I get if it's some rando .my church uses the elders and deacons to vet that .don't want to feed an addiction.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

How about asking the Holy Spirit to pass its hand over your head while you sleep to enter unto your head dreams,vision,and insight?,

Referring the Lord using the word "it" tells us everything we need to know about the respect you have for Him. We don't even need to see the rest of the sentence, though it is disrespectful on its own.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If a Pastor is delivering biblically sound messages that at a givin time apply to your season in life,then why not accept that message as good advice?.How about asking the Holy Spirit to pass its hand over your head while you sleep to enter unto your head dreams,vision,and insight?,I've tried it,it works!.There is scripture in the bible that speaks about dreams and visions.

Good post. On both counts. These are examples of what I refer to as targeted prayer (i.e. for answers). The Lord will speak through dreams and visions if you ask Him about a specific issue and seek Him diligently about it, and He can also speak through Spirit-filled, Spirit-led men of God directly into your life from the pulpit. I had a prophet come to my wife's church a few months ago, and the message he preached was SO me that I had my mouth open in amazement. I kept telling the translator (this is a Hispanic church) how much what he was saying applied directly to my life, and when the message was over the translator wanted to lead me straight to the front for a direct prophetic word from the guy. I was like, "That whole message was a word to me. What do I need a personal one for?" So I waved him off and just went back to sit with my wife. I suppose maybe I could have followed him cuz this particular prophet was extremely accurate with people (they've had several come through in the last few years and all have been good, but this one might be the best. Hard to tell), but I honestly didn't need it.

You are correct about asking God for answers through visions and dreams, though. Scripture states very plainly that the Lord will pour out the Spirit upon His people in the last days (i.e. when the sun will be darkened and the moon will turn to blood- Joel 2:31), and from youngest to oldest they will see visions, dream dreams and prophesy. This means these will become the primary means by which He communicates His specific will. Those who reject the notion that God can and will speak by this means today will forever be pinned down to only vaguely knowing what God's will would generally be for any given situation, but this was not that pattern the New Testament church walked in, and it shouldn't be the pattern we follow after now.

 

[Tenchi]

This is irrelevant.

I don't think so.

God did not create anything strong enough to limit His freedom of speech to only Bible verses.

I don't recall saying that He had...

But if you ask God for wisdom and He answers you by reminding you of Bible verses, then that's a good place to start recognizing the sound of His voice.

Uh huh.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

If God is the ultimate authority and Christ is sent by God and exercise His authority then Christ is also the ultimate or equal authority!

If the apostles are sent by Christ and exercise His authority, and act in His name then the Apostles or His Apostolic Church are also the ultimate or equal authority!

The apostolic church if bethrothed to Christ is his bride and thus subject to Christ's authority. Christ is the head of every man for from 1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Now if the woman does not obey her soon to be husband and thinks she is on par terms then she becomes a harlot which is ground for annulling the bethrothal.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Both scripture and the apostles have the same authority!

Both are God breathed!

Both Inspired!

Both come from the same source and are of divine origin & authority!


God is the source of truth and the author of the life of grace. Jn 1:16-17 Jn 14:6

Then why don’t you believe the Apostles; His Apostolic Church?

God is the ultimate authority, Christ is the authority of God, sent By God and therefore the Apostles; His Apostolic Church are the authority of Christ and sent by Christ!

The Apostles; His Apostolic Church is the extension of God & Christ with His authority to every place and time!

Under the explicit authority and command of Jesus Christ to teach & sanctity all men unto eternal salvation, with our obedience to them being implied! Matt 28:19 Lk 10:15 Jn 20:21-23

All under the guarantee & inspiration of the Holy Ghost! Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Where does Christ or scripture ever say: “this applies to what they have written ALONE”?

The apostles taught us in person, preaching teaching as the witnesses of Christ (acts 1:8 & 16:17) and the “Mouthpiece of God”!

Thirty plus years before the first letter of the Gospel or New Testament was written, Christ handed down (tradition) or transmitted the fullness of truth to the Apostles; His Apostolic Church, and they exercised authority, teaching, and sanctifying. (administration of baptism, and the sacraments)

Then decades later some of the Apostles wrote some of these truths under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost!

The fullness of divine revelation was complete with the ascension of Christ, and there is no new public revelation, but the apostolic authority continues in the threefold mission that of His Apostolic Church, teach, govern, and to sanctify!

Sacred Scripture & Tradition are God breathed and inspired!

All Christians are bound (Matt 16:18-19 & 18:17-18) to believe and obey! (Rom 16:26)

If God is the ultimate authority and Christ is sent by God and exercise His authority then Christ is also the ultimate or equal authority!

If the apostles are sent by Christ and exercise His authority, and act in His name then the Apostles or His Apostolic Church are also the ultimate or equal authority!

Sacred Scripture & Tradition have equal authority and are the ultimate authority!

Verified by scripture:

2 thes 2:15
Matt 16:18-19
Matt 18:17
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:19-20
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21-23
Acts 1:1-2
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17


The holy gesture (sign of the cross) in its roots was a prayer in apostolic times.

Fourth-century Father of the Church St. Basil (329–379) said that the Apostles “taught us to mark with the sign of the cross those who put their hope in the Lord”—that is, those who presented themselves for Baptism.

Notice the level of authority He assigned to this statement: “the Apostles taught us”!

He could not say that if He believed that Sacred scripture was the “only authority”!

That's the same argument the spiritual predecessors of the Catholic Church used before burning people on the stake during the Middle Ages. Times change and the form of the argument changes but the substance remains the same.

Please donadams don't try to hijack this thread with claims of Apostolic Authority.

As for me you don't need to engage me in further conversation. I have no patience for Catholic doctrines anymore.

Blessings!
Follower of Christ

 

[Tenchi]

People are being tricked by religious leaders and religious teachers not to believe God's Word, and they become stingy and stinky.

Yes, this is part of how the sensual (which is to say, fleshly), individual-centered version of the Christian faith has developed. This version of Christianity seeks to experience God, not as the immaterial Spirit that He is (John 4:23-24), above and outside His physical Creation, but as One who is of a kind with the substance of the universe, who can be felt, with whom one can have the same flesh-focused, sensual (senses-oriented) interaction one has with the material world, and who provokes one's emotions sharply, even to the point of hysteria. In fact, these sensual, highly-subjective believers think they MUST have these sorts of sense-stimulating, fleshly experiences of God if they are to have a truly deep, spiritual experience of Him.

This grossly sensual approach to God is greatly aided by an ignorance of God's word, and by making Scripture inferior, and subject, to one's "personal experience." It's impossible, however, if one puts God's word above one's experience where it ought to be, to indulge in this sort of sensual, me-centered "spirituality." There's not only no good ground for such fleshly "spiritual living" in the Bible but dire warnings in Scripture against it!

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption...

Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh...

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another...

It's been...disturbing to me to observe otherwise sensible people throw wide the doors of their minds to irrationality, gross subjectivism and sensuality in their "pursuit" of God. Sadly, the result has been the blasphemous and degrading "experiences" of God that we see in things like "sort-of-true/semi-accurate prophetic words," false "healings," "toking/soaking/drunkenness in the Spirit," pagan-esque, hysterical moments of spiritual convulsions, and so on. The World laughs, or course, at the ridiculous, lunatic degradation of those who profess to know and walk with God, seeing in such degradation good cause never to take Christ and the Gospel seriously.

 

[donadams]

The apostolic church if bethrothed to Christ is his bride and thus subject to Christ's authority. Christ is the head of every man for from 1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Now if the woman does not obey her soon to be husband and thinks she is on par terms then she becomes a harlot which is ground for annulling the bethrothal.

Eph 5:24
Jn 15:5

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Eph 5:24
Jn 15:5

Thank you for the brevity in your response. Blessings!

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Eph 5:24
Jn 15:5

Look I have no wish to further argue with you. I have made my stance known about this matter and I do not want to repeat myself. For the sake of keeping this thread manageable on my part I shall be silent on this thread from now on.

 

[donadams]

That's the same argument the spiritual predecessors of the Catholic Church used before burning people on the stake during the Middle Ages. Times change and the form of the argument changes but the substance remains the same.

Please donadams don't try to hijack this thread with claims of Apostolic Authority.

As for me you don't need to engage me in further conversation. I have no patience for Catholic doctrines anymore.

Blessings!
Follower of Christ

You asked about church leadership and I answered, no reason to shut down conversation

I don’t see how you can “follow Christ” without The church He himself established and the truth He himself commanded the apostles to teach and all men to believe?

Thks

 

[follower]

Other opinions are welcome.

Blessings in Christ Jesus,

and any church leader who would usurp the Spirit's control over where they went should be avoided like the plague. The quickest path to a dead faith is allowing oneself to be robbed of His personal leading and guidance. But I believe the problem has arisen over two simple facts:

1. The early church never envisioned a time when what church leadership told you to do and what the Holy Spirit told you to do would be two different things, but they often ARE today, which seems to put obeying one's elders AND the leading of the Holy Spirit at odds with each other.

See likewise the testimonies of persons who were saved by following God , trusting Him, leaving church leadership that had misled them.

These words of Scripture struck me like a bolt of lightning when I first read them.

I didn't realize what was really happening until I had been delivered by the Blood of Jesus and my mind was cleansed by His Word clearing the fog of these magical influences.

There may be much confusion to former Catholics after accepting Christ as saviour, just as it happened to me. Many teachings in the Catholic mindset could take years to work out.

 

[Hidden In Him]

See likewise the testimonies of persons who were saved by following God , trusting Him, leaving church leadership that had misled them.

Yeah, I try not to involve myself in too much debate with Catholics anymore either. They have their beliefs and they tend to be very staunch. I see it as doing no good to argue with them unless the Spirit of God specifally leads me to. Otherwise I feel I am likely just going to drive them farther away from truth than to it. If Don Adams reads discussion that can in any way be related to Catholicism he will interject, and often have a hard time not responding because he feels continually compelled to defend his church's beliefs. I'm not compelled to do anything.

Granted, I used to be that way, but these days I am more often moving only as the Holy Spirit tells me to, and how He tells me to, and have grown wise to the uselessness of debate in most instances.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[follower]

Yeah, I try not to involve myself in too much debate

Debate online on forums (and other places) is basically useless .....
the righteous continue to be more righteous,
the wiccked continue to be more wicked. (as written in Scripture)

No one gets saved unless the Father in Heaven draws them and they turn directly to the Father in Heaven as Jesus Says.

 

[donadams]

Yeah, I try not to involve myself in too much debate with Catholics anymore either. They have their beliefs and they tend to be very staunch. I see it as doing no good to argue with them unless the Spirit of God specifally leads me to. Otherwise I feel I am likely just going to drive them farther away from truth than to it. If Don Adams reads discussion that can in any way be related to Catholicism he will interject, and often have a hard time not responding because he feels continually compelled to defend his church's beliefs. I'm not compelled to do anything.

Granted, I used to be that way, but these days I am more often moving only as the Holy Spirit tells me to, and how He tells me to, and have grown wise to the uselessness of debate in most instances.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Jude 1:3 contend for the faith