Should women teach in the church?

[jaybo]

I have already stated I don't. Please read what I write.


You know, you're right. Now that I think about it, we should throw out all of Paul's writings, even the whole NT, since it was all written two thousand years ago in a culture very, very different from ours.

(I hope you can see how poor of an argument that is.)


Again, this is irrelevant and a straw man.


You really don't seem to understand the difference between law and commands for believers, as I have pointed out before.

According to your argument above--"You are either governed by the law -- written instructions about how to behave":

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
...
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
Rom 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
Rom 12:11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
Rom 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
Rom 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
Tit 2:2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.
Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Tit 2:4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
Tit 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
Tit 2:6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.
Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Tit 2:8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
Tit 2:9 Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Those two passages are all law. What do you think, that about 85% of the NT is law according to your definition? Should we ignore because it's law or because it was all written 2000 years ago?


Again, not relevant and a straw man.


This is begging the question.


You are seriously confused as to what the issue is. It isn't equality; women are equal. It is God-ordained roles and functions within his Church. "Legalism," as you have used it here, is wrong. We could dismiss most of the NT as legalism

You go on and on and on...

I wrote this: Why do you have a problem with women performing any and all roles in the church?

And you responded: I have already stated I don't. Please read what I write.

Did you not write this? None show that within the context of the assembled church, it is permissible for women to teach men and exercise authority over them.

So you are clearly contradicting yourself. I won't discuss this with you any further, as you are stuck in your contrary opinions: You write a) you don't have a problem with women performing any and all roles in the church, then write b) None show that within the context of the assembled church, it is permissible for women to teach men and exercise authority over them.

Legalism is a snare!!!

 

[jaybo]

Duplicate post...

 

[jaybo]

Legalism is a snare!!!

 

[Free]

You go on and on and on...

I wrote this: Why do you have a problem with women performing any and all roles in the church?

And you responded: I have already stated I don't. Please read what I write.

Did you not write this? None show that within the context of the assembled church, it is permissible for women to teach men and exercise authority over them.

So you are clearly contradicting yourself. I won't discuss this with you any further, as you are stuck in your contrary opinions: You write a) you don't have a problem with women performing any and all roles in the church, then write b) None show that within the context of the assembled church, it is permissible for women to teach men and exercise authority over them.

Sorry, I either had a thought going and forgot to continue it or I misread what you wrote (I was jumping back and forth between quotes and posts). My point was going to be that it's not that I have a problem with it, it's what the Bible states. Unlike some, I try to follow Scripture, not culture nor what I want. Your argument is with Paul and, therefore, ultimately God.

Legalism is a snare!!!

Yes, it is.

 

[Hopeful]

God gave the command (not) to eat to Adam, not Eve. And it was through his disobedience (not hers) that sin and death came to humans.

1 Corinthians 15:21, "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man."

I don't know if you're married, but subjection to each other is the key to a successful marriage. Two can and should lead.

Eve sinned first, according to Paul in 1 Tim 2:13-15..."For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

 

[Hopeful]

Two cannot lead, but two can agree, and then there is harmony.
.

Amen to that.
A Christian wife in subjection to her husband makes a smooth marriage to a Christian man.

 

[Hopeful]

It is clearly about discrimination. There is no valid reason why women should be treated differently than men in or out of the church. God created them equal!

Before the fall... Genesis 2:23, "The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”

After the fall... Genesis 3:12, "The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

Can't you see the clear difference??? Before the fall Adam saw Eve as his equal, his partner. After the fall he blamed her for his disobedience. The spiritual separation is perfectly clear. God created them, man and woman, to be together in every sense of the word. After Adam ate the forbidden fruit and knew good from evil, he separated himself from Eve, whom he previously praised.

Are you really claiming that we should be like Adam? Or should we be in Christ?

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If you want to be led by a woman...start your own religion.
Other have done it before.

 

[Hopeful]

The church is the body of Christ. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus.
What are you afraid of??? Does your pride prevent you from learning something from a woman?

God created men and women as equals. It was only after the fall that this separation, this hierarchy, came into being.

No, He didn't.
God made the woman to be a help mate for the man. (Gen 2:20-21)

Genesis 2:22-24, "Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. Then the man said,

“This one at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one will be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become one family."

Don't you understand this??? Look at Adam's attitude toward Eve before the fall!!! There is no dominance here! He didn't say, "Now I have a glorified servant who will not talk back and will do just as I say. Even though God has created her as my equal, she has no right to tell me what to do."

It is God's will that man and woman were created equal, both being made in His image. Discrimination and dominance are contrary to God's plan for humanity!

We are not living in the male-dominated world of the first century! God is allowing society to become more and more conformed to the way He created man and woman originally. Why are you trying to put people under the law???

 

[Hopeful]

Legalism is a snare!!!

I'ld rather be legal than illegal.

 

[Cooper]

No, I will not. I'm as free as everyone else to post in these forums. Once again, none of those verses actually addresses the context of 1 Tim 2:12 and others that I have given. None show that within the context of the assembled church, it is permissible for women to teach men and exercise authority over them. Not a single one. Some of them have nothing to do with women teachers at all.

Are you at least going to try and address the four points I made?

Paul wrote the two books of Romans and Timothy. In one he was talking about family life, where the woman was to be a help mate for her husband, and in the other, he was introducing his fellow evangelists some of whom were female.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti 2:11-12 KJV)


Rom 16:1-16 KJV
(1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
(3) Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
(4) Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
(5) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
(6) Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
(7) Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
(8) Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
(9) Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
(10) Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
(11) Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
(12) Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
(13) Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
(14) Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
(15) Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
(16) Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
.

 

[Free]

Paul wrote the two books of Romans and Timothy. In one he was talking about family life, where the woman was to be a help mate for her husband, and in the other, he was introducing his fellow evangelists some of whom were female.

Is that all Paul says? In nearly every passage, if not every passage, that Paul mentions "family life," he says that the wife is to be in submission to the husband. That is, the husband is the spiritual head of the family.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti 2:11-12 KJV)


Rom 16:1-16 KJV
(1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
(3) Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
(4) Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
(5) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
(6) Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
(7) Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
(8) Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
(9) Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
(10) Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
(11) Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
(12) Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
(13) Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
(14) Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
(15) Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
(16) Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
.

Which of those do you think address the specific context of 1 Tim 2:12? Remember, to be a fellow labourer can be nearly any sort of help. Not once does he mention a female being an overseer.

 

[jaybo]

No, He didn't.
God made the woman to be a help mate for the man. (Gen 2:20-21)

But Galatians 3:28 says this: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

If you want to base your doctrine on a single verse from the Old Testament, there is nothing further to discuss.

BTW, it's "help meet", not "help mate" in the (archaic) KJV. Meet means suitable.

 

[Cooper]

Is that all Paul says? In nearly every passage, if not every passage, that Paul mentions "family life," he says that the wife is to be in submission to the husband. That is, the husband is the spiritual head of the family.


Which of those do you think address the specific context of 1 Tim 2:12? Remember, to be a fellow labourer can be nearly any sort of help. Not once does he mention a female being an overseer.

Overseer
G3623
οἰκονόμος
oikonomos
oy-kon-om'-os
From G3624 and the base of G3551; a house distributor (that is, manager), or overseer, that is, an employee in that capacity; by extension a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively a preacher (of the Gospel): - chamberlain, governor, steward.
Total KJV occurrences: 10

 

[jaybo]

My wife and I have had 53 years of wonderful marriage together. We are equal partners in everything, as God intended. It is unChristian to consider the woman as inferior to the man in a marriage.

When God created humans...

"Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. Then the man said,

“This one at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one will be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become one family." Genesis 2:22-24

That is as clear as it can possibly be. Adam didn't say "Finally I have a glorified servant, inferior to me, who will do whatever I command". He spoke from the heart, in love, about his companion in life.

All the arguments about women being subservient to men, including not teaching in church, are absurd justifications to put women "in their place". In God's kingdom, men and women are equals.

 

[jaybo]

Sorry, I either had a thought going and forgot to continue it or I misread what you wrote (I was jumping back and forth between quotes and posts). My point was going to be that it's not that I have a problem with it, it's what the Bible states. Unlike some, I try to follow Scripture, not culture nor what I want. Your argument is with Paul and, therefore, ultimately God.


Yes, it is.

If you follow Scripture, you should understand what this clearly says...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 2:28

Your argument is with Paul and, therefore, ultimately God.

 

[electedbyhim]

But Galatians 3:28 says this: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

If you want to base your doctrine on a single verse from the Old Testament, there is nothing further to discuss.

BTW, it's "help meet", not "help mate" in the (archaic) KJV. Meet means suitable.

You are taking the verse out of context. Free has pointed this out already.

Galatians 3:28

you are all one in Christ Jesus. All those who are one with Jesus Christ are one with one another. This verse does not deny that God has designed racial, social, and sexual distinctions among Christians, but it affirms that those do not imply spiritual inequality before God. Nor is this spiritual equality incompatible with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and at home. Jesus Christ, though fully equal with the Father, assumed a submissive role during His incarnation (Php_2:5-8).

 

[jaybo]

1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV) says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet." That is Paul writing what he allows. Paul is not God! He is writing specific instructions to Timothy about what he personally permits. While it may have been appropriate for that time and place, he is not recreating the law!

He also wrote this, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4 NET

Now, before you get legalistic, most modern translations have "brothers and sisters", the true, contextual meaning of anthropoi. Anthropos is a Greek word which is often used in a gender-inclusive sense, especially in its plural forms.

 

[electedbyhim]

1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV) says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet." That is Paul writing what he allows. Paul is not God! He is writing specific instructions to Timothy about what he personally permits. While it may have been appropriate for that time and place, he is not recreating the law!

He also wrote this, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4 NET

Now, before you get legalistic, most modern translations have "brothers and sisters", the true, contextual meaning of anthropoi. Anthropos is a Greek word which is often used in a gender-inclusive sense, especially in its plural forms.

Are you saying what Paul wrote was not inspired by Holy Spirit?

 

[Free]

If you follow Scripture, you should understand what this clearly says...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 2:28

Your argument is with Paul and, therefore, ultimately God.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, it has absolutely nothing to do with equality. Nothing. You seem to be very confused not only on the difference between law and commands for believers, but also between equality and God-ordained roles and functions within his Church.

 

[jaybo]

As I have repeatedly pointed out, it has absolutely nothing to do with equality. Nothing. You seem to be very confused not only on the difference between law and commands for believers, but also between equality and God-ordained roles and functions within his Church.

So you're repeatedly wrong. In both areas.