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Sin hanged on a pole

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CherubRam

Judaic Christian
Member
In order to fulfill prophecy Christ had to die on a pole. If he died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
 
In order to fulfill prophecy Christ had to die on a pole. If he died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
The comparison in John 3:14 is of being lifted up not on what the snake/Jesus were lifted up on.
 
In order to fulfill prophecy Christ had to die on a pole. If he died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Did God become sin on a pole or did Jesus become sin on a pole?
 
Did God become sin on a pole or did Jesus become sin on a pole?
Parabolic, and yet real.
Yahshua died for our sins as a atonement to Yahwah, the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:12
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
 
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
so must the Son of man be lifted up,


The as (or just) as relates to the lifting up. They both were lifted up.
It does not relate to what they were lifted up on (pole or cross).
Is that better?
How come you do not see the words "POLE" in Numbers 21:8 and 9


KJV
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Jesus did not die on a "cross", but died upon a torture stake, for that is the meaning of the Greek word stauros, and is used interchangeably by the Bible writers with the Greek word xylon, translated as "tree" or "wood" by the King James Bible.(Acts 5:30)

For Jesus to become the "accursed" one, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, it was required for him to die upon a "tree" or more literally a "stake", for Deuteronomy 21:22,23 says: " And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree.(Hebrew ‛ets´) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree (Hebrew ‛ets´), but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God."(King James Bible)

The apostle Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 21:23, saying that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Greek xylon ):"(Gal 3:13, King James Bible)

Thus, the Hebrew word ‛ets´ corresponds to the Greek word xylon and means a timber, or a "beam". To show that this is the case, at 1 Kings 6:15, in building the temple, it said that Solomon, "from the floor of the house up to the rafters of the ceiling he overlaid (the walls) with timber (Hebrew ‛ets´) inside." Thus, "timber" ("a large piece of wood, usually squared, used in a building, for example, as a beam", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) of cedar was used to overlay the walls, and was upright "timber" of wood and not "cross" forms.

The online interlinear Scripture4all renders xylon as "wood". Another Greek word used for the instrument Jesus died upon, stauros, is at Matthew 10:38; 16:24; 27:32, 40, 42 and is rendered as "pale"(online interlinear Scripture4all ), which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) That he died upon a "pole" or "stake", is that the apostle Peter said of Jesus, that "we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:"(Acts 10:39, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon)

The apostle Paul told the Jews in Antioch in Pisidia, that "when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him (Jesus) down from the tree." (Acts 13:29, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) The apostle Peter wrote: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."(1 Peter 2:24, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) Hence, Jesus died upon a "tree" or "pale", a "stake", not cross.

The Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom.(Lev 13:56-59) The French Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel (Encyclopedic Universal Dictionary) says: “For a long time we believed that the cross, considered a religious symbol, was specifically for Christians. This is not the case.” The book Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum (1986) states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stau·ros´] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”

The New Strong's Concise Concordance & Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible states that the meaning of "stauros (4716) denotes, primarily , "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."(Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible, pg 75, 1999 edition)

Under the Hebrew word ‛ets´ (6086), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "tree; wood; timber; stick; stalk." It goes on to say that "this word may signify a single "tree," as it does in Gen. 2:9; or a genus of tree, Isa. 41:19. ‛ets´ can mean "wood as a material from which things are constructed, as a raw material to be carved, Exod. 31:5. Large unprocessed pieces of "wood or timber" are also signified by ‛ets´, Hag 1:8. The end product of wood already processed and fashioned into something may be indicated by ‛ets´, Lev 11:32. This word means "stick" or "piece of wood" in Ezek. 37:16...‛ets´ one time means "stalk," Josh. 2:6."(pg 387)

And under the Greek word xylon (3586), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood," is used, with the rendering "tree,"....the tree being the stauros, the upright pale or stake to which Romans nailed those who were thus to be executed, Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; 1 Pet 2:24."(pg 387-88)

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.
 
KJV
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Jesus did not die on a "cross", but died upon a torture stake, for that is the meaning of the Greek word stauros, and is used interchangeably by the Bible writers with the Greek word xylon, translated as "tree" or "wood" by the King James Bible.(Acts 5:30)

For Jesus to become the "accursed" one, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, it was required for him to die upon a "tree" or more literally a "stake", for Deuteronomy 21:22,23 says: " And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree.(Hebrew ‛ets´) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree (Hebrew ‛ets´), but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God."(King James Bible)

The apostle Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 21:23, saying that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Greek xylon ):"(Gal 3:13, King James Bible)

Thus, the Hebrew word ‛ets´ corresponds to the Greek word xylon and means a timber, or a "beam". To show that this is the case, at 1 Kings 6:15, in building the temple, it said that Solomon, "from the floor of the house up to the rafters of the ceiling he overlaid (the walls) with timber (Hebrew ‛ets´) inside." Thus, "timber" ("a large piece of wood, usually squared, used in a building, for example, as a beam", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) of cedar was used to overlay the walls, and was upright "timber" of wood and not "cross" forms.

The online interlinear Scripture4all renders xylon as "wood". Another Greek word used for the instrument Jesus died upon, stauros, is at Matthew 10:38; 16:24; 27:32, 40, 42 and is rendered as "pale"(online interlinear Scripture4all ), which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) That he died upon a "pole" or "stake", is that the apostle Peter said of Jesus, that "we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:"(Acts 10:39, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon)

The apostle Paul told the Jews in Antioch in Pisidia, that "when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him (Jesus) down from the tree." (Acts 13:29, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) The apostle Peter wrote: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."(1 Peter 2:24, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) Hence, Jesus died upon a "tree" or "pale", a "stake", not cross.

The Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom.(Lev 13:56-59) The French Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel (Encyclopedic Universal Dictionary) says: “For a long time we believed that the cross, considered a religious symbol, was specifically for Christians. This is not the case.” The book Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum (1986) states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stau·ros´] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”

The New Strong's Concise Concordance & Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible states that the meaning of "stauros (4716) denotes, primarily , "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."(Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible, pg 75, 1999 edition)

Under the Hebrew word ‛ets´ (6086), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "tree; wood; timber; stick; stalk." It goes on to say that "this word may signify a single "tree," as it does in Gen. 2:9; or a genus of tree, Isa. 41:19. ‛ets´ can mean "wood as a material from which things are constructed, as a raw material to be carved, Exod. 31:5. Large unprocessed pieces of "wood or timber" are also signified by ‛ets´, Hag 1:8. The end product of wood already processed and fashioned into something may be indicated by ‛ets´, Lev 11:32. This word means "stick" or "piece of wood" in Ezek. 37:16...‛ets´ one time means "stalk," Josh. 2:6."(pg 387)

And under the Greek word xylon (3586), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood," is used, with the rendering "tree,"....the tree being the stauros, the upright pale or stake to which Romans nailed those who were thus to be executed, Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; 1 Pet 2:24."(pg 387-88)

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

We've been though all this before in the thread Cross or Stake.
I see no point in going through it all again.
 
Numbers 21:8 & 9 are not relevant to the comparison.

John 3:14 does not mention pole or cross.
John's comparison is the lifting up.

NIV
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.
 
NIV
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.

Interesting how you normally use the KJV but now switch to the NIV when the KJV doesn't suit you. A bit deceitful that.
What does the KJV say? - As you quoted above (post #8)
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Beside that you keep avoiding the point that John 3:14 does not mention pole or cross.
John is clearly making the comparison of being lifted up.

If the comparison was pole/cross surely he would have mentioned that.
As in - "Just as Moses lifted up the snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up on a pole."
But he didn't.
 
Parabolic, and yet real.
Yahshua died for our sins as a atonement to Yahwah, the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:12
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
It would seem it's a bit more nuanced than God becoming sin and hanging on a pole, but rather a human body of a sinless man became sin on a pole.

1 Peter 2
24He Himself bore our sins
in His body on the tree,
so that we might die to sin
and live to righteousness.
“By His stripes you are healed.”

2 Corinthians 5
21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
 
Numbers 21:8 & 9 are not relevant to the comparison.

John 3:14 does not mention pole or cross.
John's comparison is the lifting up.
Learn to read English. John 3:16 says: "Just as"

"Just as" means "just like." As in: Moses hung a serpent on a pole.
 
Interesting how you normally use the KJV but now switch to the NIV when the KJV doesn't suit you. A bit deceitful that.
What does the KJV say? - As you quoted above (post #8)
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Beside that you keep avoiding the point that John 3:14 does not mention pole or cross.
John is clearly making the comparison of being lifted up.

If the comparison was pole/cross surely he would have mentioned that.
As in - "Just as Moses lifted up the snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up on a pole."
But he didn't.
Moses, the subject is about Moses hanging a serpent on a pole. Not a Pagan cross, but a pole.
 
In order to fulfill prophecy Christ had to die on a pole. If he died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
It is begging the question to claim that the snake on a pole is a prophecy of Christ or even a type of Christ. Also, Mungo is correct in that the analogy Jesus is making is that of being "lifted up," not that the snake was on a pole.
 
Can you show us where John 3:16 says, "Just as?" Just as what?
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
 
In order to fulfill prophecy Christ had to die on a pole. If he died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,...

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Hi CherubRam

If you're right, you're still dead in your sin.

God bless,
Ted
 
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