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I hold the Bible as the primary source for coming to know and understand the condition of man and the Creator's plan of salvation.

I do not think that the Bible is off limits to Satan and his influences. If Lucifer was afforded the opportunity to deceive the heavenly Angels in close proximity to God then I find it implausible that we humans are fairing much better with having a book that has been left undefiled by evil. I know what it says and truthfully have to say that the contradictions are starkly obvious.

The way to settle this is to look only to the character of Jesus and how He dealt with humankind as the Savior among us.

The guarantee that the Bible is infallible is a warranty of man and that is not good enough for me. God is an equal opportunity Father and every man, woman and child can abandon all who profess to exclusively have the only knowledge and truth such as the Pope or those who profess to know the one and only true word and will of God.

Jesus did not present Himself as having the truth but that He is the Truth, as though He is responding to some pre-established portrayal of the Father.

One last question: Would Satan rather mankind view the Majesty of the universe as stern, vengeful, and unapproachable or as the Father who is waiting for His prodigal son to come to the realization that Home with his Father was the best place to be all along?
 
Ruben,

It is you who are judging everyone else. Your name calling and judging everyone else as being judgmental is judging.

What everyone else is doing is thinking, reasoning, and put together the information that you have given us with our already acquired knowledge of the nature of God and His word. You see, what everyone else is attempting to do is to get a clue as to what inspired your question SO THAT WE CAN ANSWER IT.

The very nature of the question itself appears to be such that it was asked by someone who either does not know or understand God, or has put himself in judgment of God.

You are in a Christian forum, among people who know God. Whom have a relationship with God, and who read His word, and seek His will.

I have not judged you, I do, however bring you before the Almighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and I ask His judgments in this thread. I pray it in the name of Jesus Christ, and I give Him praise and glory for it.
 
Ruben said:
jgredline
By any way you put it you are still judging me and that is not your right. You may assess my position or intentions concerning your beliefs and you may conclude that I don't think or believe as you. You can not and should not attempt to discern my relationship with Christ and the Father. Who do you think you are?
I know I am a sinner who at Gods mercy saved me By grace through faith....This is who I am....

Someday I pray that you will see what a wretch you are and that you to will repent of your evil and wicked ways, that you will stop Judging God, for the question is this....Who are you to judge God...It is your own words that condem you, not anything that I have said for I mearly telling you what you already know.....

Matthew 7:1-6 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Ok, so what does all this mean?

Matthew 7:1-6

7:1 Sometimes these words of our Lord are misconstrued by people to prohibit all forms of judgment. No matter what happens, they piously say, “Judge not, that you be not judged. But Jesus is not teaching that we are to be undiscerning Christians. He never intended that we abandon our critical faculty or discernment. The NT has many illustrations of legitimate judgment of the condition, conduct, or teaching of others. In addition, there are several areas in which the Christian is commanded to make a decision, to discriminate between good and bad or between good and best. Some of these include:

1. When disputes arise between believers, they should be settled in the church before members who can decide the matter (1 Cor. 6:18).

2. The local church is to judge serious sins of its members and take appropriate action (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13).

3. Believers are to judge the doctrinal teaching of teachers and preachers by the Word of God (Matt. 7:15-20; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Jn. 4:1).

4. Christians have to discern if others are believers in order to obey Pauls command in 2 Corinthians 6:14.

5. Those in the church must judge which men have the qualifications necessary for elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-13).

6. We have to discern which people are unruly, faint hearted, weak, etc., and treat them according to the instructions in the Bible (e.g., 1 Thess. 5:14).

7:2 Jesus warned that unrighteous judgment would be repaid in kind: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. This principle of reaping what we sow is built into all human life and affairs. Mark applies the principle to our appropriation of the Word (4:24) and Luke applies it to our liberality in giving (6:38).

7:35 Jesus exposed our tendency to see a small fault in someone else while ignoring the same fault in ourselves. He purposely exaggerated the situation (using a figure of speech known as hyperbole) to drive home the point. Someone with a plank in his eye often finds fault with the speck in the eye of another, not even noticing his own condition. It is hypocritical to suppose that we could help someone with a fault when we ourselves have a greater fault. We must remedy our own faults before criticizing them in others.

7:6 Verse 6 proves that Jesus did not intend to forbid every kind of judgment. He warned His disciples not to give holy things to dogs or to cast ... pearls before swine . Under the Mosaic Law dogs and swine were unclean animals and here the terms are used to depict wicked people. When we meet vicious people who treat divine truths with utter contempt and respond to our preaching of the claims of Christ with abuse and violence, we are not obligated to continue to share the gospel with them. To press the matter only brings increased condemnation to the offenders.



So to summarize;

What was Jesus calling for when He ordered His followers to “judge not? Did He want us to close our eyes to error and evil? Did He intend that managers forgo critical performance reviews of their employees? Or that news editors and art critics pull their punches? Or that juries refrain from judgment? Should we decline any assessment of others, since none of us is perfect?

No, those would all be mis applications of Jesus teaching. In the first place, He was not commanding blind acceptance, but grace toward others. Since all of us are sinners, we need to stop bothering with the failings of others and start attending to serious issues of our own. His words here extend His earlier expose of hypocrisy. Don't blame or put down others while excusing or exalting yourself, Jesus was saying.

Is there room, then, to assess others, especially when we know we are not perfect? Yes, but only in Jesus way: with empathy and fairness, and with a readiness to freely and fully forgive. When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.



Needless to say, it requires spiritual perception to discern these people. Perhaps that is why the next verses take up the subject of prayer, by which we can ask for wisdom. I should also point out, that it is my belief that Jesus here is speaking to his church.. For the non believer, there will be the great white throne judgment seat. I will address that down below..
 
jgredline,
You have stated your mind set. There is nothing else to say.

Gabby,
I was quite well aware of what most Christians believe before I entered this forum. My intent is honorable, my delivery perhaps flawed because I too am flawed.

I started off by proclaiming that a day will come when mankind will judge the Creator, the Godhead. I wanted to call attention to this subject. If you can hear what I am saying then you will see that I am not attacking God nor am I blaspheming.

I don't want your solutions or your prepackaged answers. I want people to think of the possibility that maybe, just maybe, some of those long standing beliefs such as 'faith saves us' are not the only way of translating what is contained within the Scriptures. Come on, faith is a tool by which to hold onto hope. The benefit of having faith is giving strength of hope until the time is fulfilled.

As for faith in the merits of Christ Jesus being sufficient for all men, this is a hoped for part of reality yet to be fully realized.

As far as man judging the Creator how else could the proclamation be made, "worthy is the Lamb of God"? That ladies and gentlemen is judging the Creator.

Now as for the rest of what happens, if anyone on this forum wishes to discuss the possibilities of and further exploring into the Goodness of God the Father and is willing to stand boldly before our Creator and ask for truth, knowledge, and understanding please jump in. If not I will say good-bye and move on in my search. I certainly hold no hard feelings. I judge no one here to be anything less than enthusiastic about their beliefs.
 
Ruben said:
jgredline,
You have stated your mind set. There is nothing else to say.

OK

I said my peace, so I will leave you with this....

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I pray that you will come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ....
I am done with this thread..
 
Hi Ruben,

Taking a step backwards I read through some of your comments and some of the responses. This is what I see is happening:

When Christians discuss things with you the reaction that is occurring is a clash of their Christian world view against your world view.

This is something that is clearly discernable. Are you experiencing the reaction or clash that I am talking about?
 
Ruben,

My replies are in bold;



Ruben said:
Ever wondered why God needs something to die because of sin? Is it in order to keep some universal balance correct or does God simply demand retribution?


I have often 'wondered' about MANY things; including this question that you ask.

But Reben, some things we will NOT know until the TIME is right for it to BE revealed.

But NO, I doubt that it has ANYTHING to do with universal balance.


[quote:ac802]Is there a law that commands God to punish and/or destroy anything defective and if this law does exist then who establish it?

The ONLY HOLY laws that we KNOW OF were extablished by GOD. And WHO says that which contradicts God's law is defective. The indication is that God seeks those that are WILLING. This does not indicate defective. Keep following me here and you will see the pertinence of my statements.

If God has to destroy life because of sin then who is God obeying? I should think God being God He could do everything, even repair the sinners.
[/quote:ac802]

Ruben,

God GAVE life and it is nothing BUT a 'thing'. He gave it, it is HIS to take as His will. For those that LOVE and TRUST God, they are perfectly aware that there is NO reason to FEAR death. Every form of life on this planet WILL die in it's present state. ONLY those that FEAR death would 'see it' in the manner which you present.

NO, I do NOT believe that God answers to a 'higher form' than Himself. His rules and the life that He has given were His to give in the MANNER in which He chose.

Your question 'reeks' of the exact 'feeling' of the man that felt 'cheated' when, at the end of the day in which he had worked FULLY, he witnessed others being payed the same penny for but an hours worth of work. Instead of being satisfied with what he had bargained for, he instead felt cheated that others received the 'same pay' for less 'work'.

I think that 'sacrifice' is MORE the answer than death. For LOVE IS GIVING not taking. God NEVER asked simply for sacrifice of ANY animal. But the sacrifice of something of VALUE. The animal sacrifices that we are aware of were animals that were of VALUE. And willingness of man to offer his WEALTH was the KEY. Giving to the poor and a willingness to GIVE UP that which was NEEDED was KEY in an understanding of this LOVE that God wishes us to LEARN. See, it was NOT the 'death' that appeased God, but THROUGH the death, the ACT of GIVING.

And what has a man accomplished that lives this life simply for the SAKE of living? We are HERE TO GIVE. NOT to simply TAKE. And UNDERSTANDING this is paramount to understanding God and WHAT God IS. For there is NOTHING greater that a man could do than 'give up' HIS life for that of another. I know that this can be difficult to understand. But ONCE one CAN understand this; at this point one has 'come to the truth' that God SO desires for us to accomplish in understanding.

MEC
 
I have a couple of questions but if you will please don't throw a bunch of Biblical quotes at me. This is not a contest of who is fastest on their Bible program. We all have it and we all can read.

I want to speak to a real person, not a walking talking Bible. I want to converse with those that see life and its answers as being found in many places, not just the Bible.

If no then ignore me and I'll go in search else where. If yes then....

Question 1. Why didn't God destroy Lucifer or quiet him in some way early on so a whole lot of pain and suffering could have been avoided?

I believe Jehovah was trapped and could do nothing else but allow Lucifer full rein as has happened.

Question 2. Was Eve deceived into taking of the fruit or did she go into it with a wide eyed rebellion that had been cooking in the back of her head for some time? Rational and reasonable thinking tells me that a rebellion does not just pop up at a moments notice. Rebellion is an act of discontent that takes time to develope.

I believe Eve was as inoccent as a perhaps two or three year old of today. I base this on the degree of which a two or three year old is generally exposed to the harsher truths of reality. Eve may have intellectually know of a 'deception' but she obviously didn't recognize it in front of her.

Anybody???
 
Ruben said:
I have a couple of questions but if you will please don't throw a bunch of Biblical quotes at me. This is not a contest of who is fastest on their Bible program. We all have it and we all can read.

I want to speak to a real person, not a walking talking Bible. I want to converse with those that see life and its answers as being found in many places, not just the Bible.

If no then ignore me and I'll go in search else where. If yes then....

Question 1. Why didn't God destroy Lucifer or quiet him in some way early on so a whole lot of pain and suffering could have been avoided?

I believe Jehovah was trapped and could do nothing else but allow Lucifer full rein as has happened.

Question 2. Was Eve deceived into taking of the fruit or did she go into it with a wide eyed rebellion that had been cooking in the back of her head for some time? Rational and reasonable thinking tells me that a rebellion does not just pop up at a moments notice. Rebellion is an act of discontent that takes time to develope.

I believe Eve was as inoccent as a perhaps two or three year old of today. I base this on the degree of which a two or three year old is generally exposed to the harsher truths of reality. Eve may have intellectually know of a 'deception' but she obviously didn't recognize it in front of her.

Anybody???


Answer questions about God, the devil, and Eve, but don't use the Bible?

I will be ignoring you now.
do hope that you will continue seeking the truth though. God has a way of showing up in places that you would not expect. I pray that He does that for you.
 
Ruben said:
I have a couple of questions but if you will please don't throw a bunch of Biblical quotes at me. This is not a contest of who is fastest on their Bible program. We all have it and we all can read.

I want to speak to a real person, not a walking talking Bible. I want to converse with those that see life and its answers as being found in many places, not just the Bible.

If no then ignore me and I'll go in search else where. If yes then....

Question 1. Why didn't God destroy Lucifer or quiet him in some way early on so a whole lot of pain and suffering could have been avoided?

I believe Jehovah was trapped and could do nothing else but allow Lucifer full rein as has happened.

Question 2. Was Eve deceived into taking of the fruit or did she go into it with a wide eyed rebellion that had been cooking in the back of her head for some time? Rational and reasonable thinking tells me that a rebellion does not just pop up at a moments notice. Rebellion is an act of discontent that takes time to develope.

I believe Eve was as inoccent as a perhaps two or three year old of today. I base this on the degree of which a two or three year old is generally exposed to the harsher truths of reality. Eve may have intellectually know of a 'deception' but she obviously didn't recognize it in front of her.

Anybody???

I will answer them in order;

I 'personally' believe that God STILL loves Lucifer. That He is ALLOWING him to 'seal his fate' if you will. And, for the future of His relationship with man, He wishes to 'weed out' those that choose as Satan did and He is allowing Satan to 'influence' those that are NOT on solid spiritual foundation.

That you 'believe' that Lucifer exists is a LARGE step in understanding TRUTH. But THE truth is; God is PLENTY able to destroy Satan at will. And HIS will is that 'time' be fulfilled as prophecy has been given. Time to God is NON-EXISTENT compared to that which is 'mortal'.

Concerning Eve; Many will argue this but the scriptures bear it out as well as the SAME spirit that MANY women follow STILL. And here's the answer to this question;

Satan KNEW EXACTLY how to entice Eve into doing that which is unseemly. He KNEW that she was NOT content with her 'place' so far as relationship with God. For Eve was 'created' FOR Adam and there is LITTLE, if ANY, indication that she even HAD a relationship with God in the 'beginning'. To sum it up; She was ENVIOUS of the relationship that Adam had with God. So, when Satan offered, NOT ONLY to make her EQUAL with Adam, but to make her 'like God Himself', she couldn't resist. So YES, rebelion that may have been brewing for A LONG time. And as we KNOW, it was EVE that was enticed by Satan NOT Adam. Adam simply went along with Eve's suggestion. Adam DISOBEYED God without doubt. But in defense of Adam, He most likely LOVED Eve and chose to please her even at the expense of disobeying God.

Now, for those that will disagree with what I have offered, (most will be women I imagine), there is MUCH in the NT that explains MOST of what I have offered. The SAME 'spirit' that allowed Satan to fall is what he used to bring about the fall of Eve as well. Taking things into HIS OWN HANDS rather than trusting in God. And that is EXACTLY what Eve did. When given the understanding that 'she TOO' could become AS God, this was IRRESTISTABLE to her. And the ONLY way that this was possible was ENVY.

And DON'T forget; Satan's ONLY lie to Eve was that she would NOT die and that God was denying the tree for selfishness' sake. EVERYTHING else he stated to her was TRUTH. And Eve was NOT decieved so much as 'enticed'. For there was LITTLE 'deception' in the words offered by Satan. ALMOST EVERYTHING he stated was TRUTH. For their eyes WERE OPENED. And they DID at that time SEE the difference between good and evil. And, when one reads on in the story, God HIMSELF states that 'NOW that man has become as 'one of US'........................... So, what Satan offered was NOT so much 'deception' as ENTICEMENT. And choosing SELF over God will lead in the EXACT 'same' direction EVERY TIME.

And, while Eve may have been relatively innocent, she was WELL aware that it was FORBIDDEN to eat from the 'tree'. And we have NO IDEA how old either Adam OR Eve was at the time they were cast out of the garden. The traditionalist 'believe' in a 'literal' six day 'creation' and therefore, they 'believe' that this offers 'some kind' of 'time-line' concerning thier ages. But the TRUTH is, we have NO IDEA how old they were. In this light, they could have been relatively mature in age. Or, perhaps, PREVIOUS to thier 'fall' from grace, they may NOT have aged AT ALL. And we have NO IDEA how much knowledge God had implanted within them at the point of their 'creation'. But CERTAINLY enough to KNOW BETTER than to make the choice that they both made.

MEC
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
Answer questions about God, the devil, and Eve, but don't use the Bible?

I will be ignoring you now.
do hope that you will continue seeking the truth though. God has a way of showing up in places that you would not expect. I pray that He does that for you.

gabby,

There is MUCH that we ARE able to offer WITHOUT 'quoting' the Bible. I RARELY offer quotes for the 'things' that I USUALLY choose to discuss go BEYOND a 'simple quote' from the Bible. This makes it 'difficult' to discuss MUCH with those that INSIST upon literal quotes. For there is KNOWLEDGE that goes LIGHT YEARS beyond 'quotes'. YES, this knowledge ORIGINALLY began with scripture, but ONCE one ingests ENOUGH 'writting', it is THEN that they are able to 'go beyond'.

It's kind of like this; To BE a doctor takes ALL the knowledge that one learns in 1-12 grades. Then one must 'go on' to gain a Bachelors degree. Then there is medicine. Then internship...................... So, once one starts on this path of knowledge, they eventually 'go BEYOND' that of the 'average' individual who has NOT taken this path.

The Bible is LITTLE different. In it is contained KNOWLEDGE. For MOST, this is limited to the words written out in individual lines. For SOME, it goes beyond into 'groups of scripture' that contain an even DEEPER understanding. Eventually for VERY FEW, this knowledge is 'like a beautiful tapistry', intricately woven in the MOST MINUTE detail. All if it extremely complex but FITTING perfectly together in 'one monumental scene'.

It STARTS, (for those on the RIGHT path), with a 'basic understanding' of who and WHAT God is. Then on to that which SHOWS us that it is TRUTH. From there we can 'go on' to a more intricate understanding of WHO AND WHAT WE ARE. But, anywhere along this path one IS able to veer in different directions than THE TRUTH. And ONCE ONE DOES THIS, their knowledge can become askew. If allowed to flourish, this knowledge can become MORE dangerous than NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL. The important thing is to START out on the RIGHT path and try their BEST to STAY ON IT. If one 'takes a wrong turn', the prudent thing to DO is to GO BACK where one went 'astray' and START OVER FROM THERE. NO, one NEVER need to 'start over COMPLETELY, unless they started WITHOUT an understanding of the basics of WHO and WHAT God IS. But to end us KNOWING who and what WE ARE, one MUST follow the path that LEADS in the PROPER DIRECTION.

And gabby, not JUST directing this at YOU. I thought it may help ANYONE that reads it and didn't have this understanding to 'start with'.

MEC
 
Why wasn't the first sin counted when she began entertaining thoughts of discontent. Jesus said that to think it in your heart is to do it.

Also, I looked it up and a lot of references to the event bears out that she was indeed deceived. Can we go with this?

If she was deceived then she was still innocent, no crime committed.

A possible scenario: Child walking home from school is confronted by a person of evil intent. The person entices the child with a lost puppy story or what ever might appeal to a child's heart.

The child is abducted and the consequences of her falling prey to the crafty abductor's deception turns out to be fatal.

I don't have to ask who is in the wrong here, who is the guilty party.

Ever thought about what is involved in being the victim of a deception? The victim has to put a degree of trust in their victimizer. Just like we have to put trust into God.

Show me how we can accept that Eve is guilty of anything other than trusting in the wrong talking snake?
 
Imagican said:
gabby,

There is MUCH that we ARE able to offer WITHOUT 'quoting' the Bible. I RARELY offer quotes for the 'things' that I USUALLY choose to discuss go BEYOND a 'simple quote' from the Bible. ...

...MEC

Yeah, I noticed that about you. I am sure that the Lord Himself keeps careful notes on those who think of His Word as 'simple quotes'.

I praise God for the power in His Word. There is such power in the light that those who walk in darkness are blinded by it.
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
Yeah, I noticed that about you. I am sure that the Lord Himself keeps careful notes on those who think of His Word as 'simple quotes'.

I praise God for the power in His Word. There is such power in the light that those who walk in darkness are blinded by it.

You go Girl, you go.... 8-)
 
Ruben wrote:

Also, I looked it up and a lot of references to the event bears out that she was indeed deceived. Can we go with this?

Yes.

If she was deceived then she was still innocent, no crime committed.

Eve ate, she was deceived, she gave some to Adam, he ate , then their eyes were opened. That's why we call it Adam's sin - see Romans cahpter 5,


Show me how we can accept that Eve is guilty of anything other than trusting in the wrong talking snake?

How many talking snakes do you suppose there were?

Eve is guilty because Adam sinned, Adam is the representive head of humanity. If you read Genesis 3 and Romans 5 Paul talks about sin entering in through one man's transgression - that was Adam's sin.
 
I wonder how typical it was to encounter talking snakes? If the serpent was alone in its ability to talk this too would have added to the cleverness of Satan's ploy.

After Eve 'took of the fruit and did eat' Lucifer, as the talking serpent, wasted no time in accusing her, you know 'Satan the accuser'. This is the same process on which Lucifer was able to deceive a third of the angels.

When Adam saw what his beloved Eve had done he know what was going to happen as a result, at least in part.

Adam was faced with the decision of turning away from Eve and maintain his status in the Garden or to join Eve in her fate.

We know Adam made a deliberate choice to go with Eve.

Have you ever considered that this is exactly what Jesus did? He chose to leave the peace of Heaven and join fallen humanity in their plight.

So what Adam did was honorable and representative of what Christ was yet to do.
 
Sorry that this doesn't fit v. well at this point in the conversation, but I challenged my youth group about this on Sunday.

They see it as, God hates sin, and only pure holy things can enter Heaven. Therefore the punishment for sin is death/not entering Heaven, i.e. death. We deserve to die because of our sin and all sin being equal. Before the fall, our bodies did not deteriorate as they do now, death didn't exist in the garden of eden, therefore as the first sin (the fall) led to death, and all sin is equall, therefore all sin leads to death.

As God is just, we should be the ones who die and can't enter Heaven, but Jesus paid our fine/penalty for our crime. Justice has still been done.

I don't know if this has been said since I last read this post, but just thought I'd share their thoughts.
 
Ruben said:
Question 1. Why didn't God destroy Lucifer or quiet him in some way early on so a whole lot of pain and suffering could have been avoided?

I believe Jehovah was trapped and could do nothing else but allow Lucifer full rein as has happened.


God greatly desires all men to be saved. However, with what we know, God desires that men come to Him out of love. In other words, that men have free will to choose Him. To choose to be LIKE Him in dying to self through our love of others.

Suffering is a great mystery. We know it has incredible value, though, because God HIMSELF decided to undergo it to show His love for us. As such, with this model for us, apparently, we become more like God when we also suffer for the sake of others. When we give of ourselves to others. When we willingly surrender our desires for selfish desires for the sake of another. None of this is possible if man doesn't have the option of choosing evil over good. Thus, God allows Lucifer to continue to tempt men to follow his own ways rather than God.

God certainly wasn't trapped. The problem is that most of us see suffering as ONLY a negative. The saints never saw suffering in that light - nor did Christ. It is an opportunity of showing our love for others.

Sinias said:
Question 2. Was Eve deceived into taking of the fruit or did she go into it with a wide eyed rebellion that had been cooking in the back of her head for some time? Rational and reasonable thinking tells me that a rebellion does not just pop up at a moments notice. Rebellion is an act of discontent that takes time to develope.

Eve participate in the sin of Adam. It is difficult to speculate on the knowledge Eve had when taking the fruit, but we know that she was given a command by God and was cognizant of it. She also fell for the twisting of God's intent through the temptations of Satan, which means she had rational thought and a desire to satisfy herself. She sinned, but it was Adam's sin that effected all of humanity.

We don't know how long Eve "formulated rebellion" in her mind. It appears from the story that she acted on the temptation immediately, which tells me that she was vunerable to taking the easy way to holiness.

Regards
 
Have you ever considered where our process of commerce originated? You know, the buying and selling, what some people believe is the Babylon referred to in Daniel and Rev.

I would be willing to wager that it is an invention of Satan and a result of sin.

Any ideas?
 
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