God will not convict believers of sin!

[Kathi]

What is God not in control of?

Is this the same Phil Drysdale that says God is not in control of everything?

I know, talk about a controversial title for a blog.

But it’s true.

God is not in control of everything.

And I have irrefutable proof of that.

Were you aware of this Willie?

http://www.phildrysdale.com/

tob


Oh I now get it...it took me awhile after reading the article.Sorry tob.

 

[Kathi]

What does control mean to you?
Does God control people all the time?
Is God's will always done?

My post was a misunderstanding of tob's post.

 

[Jesse]

Here's his advice to the Thessalonians on how to channel conviction of the wrong-doer:

"14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame." (2 Thessalonians 3:14 NASB)

I see the potential for abuse there, but it's clear that there are factors to be considered in how, and to what extent, we are to let God's conviction work on the wrong-doing saint.

This verse might fit into what you're saying. We should be sad about the sin we do, it grieves the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 7:8-11 (NIV) Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This verse might fit into what you're saying. We should be sad about the sin we do, it grieves the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 7:8-11 (NIV) Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you..

Bingo! Couldn't remember where it was. Thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My post was a misunderstanding of tob's post.

Which is why I clicked on the link before jumping to conclusions, because I, too, resist the notion that God is helpless in various instances, but that is not what he meant.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike, what does the reference, PERFECT, mean in the Bible?

Perfect in scripture means complete, entire, wanting Nothing, of age, fully mature. It does not mean void of mistakes though.

I'll say it................ Jesus did not start out perfect!!!! He did not even have God's full Favor.

I have the scripture also, lets see what reliegious minds do with my statement. Let's see who actually studies and knows my scripture.

What is God not in control of?

Almost everything percent wise that goes on in this World. Most everything.

What does control mean to you?
Does God control people all the time?
Is God's will always done?

That statement comes from the "NO FAULT RELIEGION" You don't have to believe anything, speak what you want and no matter what we do, God controls everything.

It's the same spirit in the World of nobody wanting to take responsibility for anything, and blaming others. IN this Case, God gets the blame for most things by believers. They have their scapegoat, His Name is Jehovah.

Little Jimmy on his Big wheel getting flattened by that drunk driver who ran up over the curb was God's mysterious will and plan. God did it for his greater purpose, something we just don't understand. God took little Jimmy home early for the evil to come as God was to clueless to figure out how to protect him.

That also means if Litttle Jimmy at the ripe old age of 5 met his fate on that big wheel by the drunk driver under the will of God calling little Jimmy home, then the drunk Driver would also have done the perfect will of God and should be punished for his obedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perfect in scripture means complete, entire, wanting Nothing, of age, fully mature. It does not mean void of mistakes though.

I'll say it................ Jesus did not start out perfect!!!! He did not even have God's full Favor.

I have the scripture also, lets see what reliegious minds do with my statement. Let's see who actually studies and knows my scripture.

Hebrews 2:10 NASB, Hebrews 5:8 NASB, Luke 2:52 NASB

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That also means if Litttle Jimmy at the ripe old age of 5 met his fate on that big wheel by the drunk driver under the will of God calling little Jimmy home, then the drunk Driver would also have done the perfect will of God and should be punished for his obedience.

I think the aspect of 'God's will' that they are entertaining is this:

"12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 "But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee." (Exodus 21:12-13 NASB)

This is how the NIV puts it:

"12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. " (Exodus 21:12-13 NIV)

I think this shows that God is in control even when he's not in control, because he controls things by not getting involved, and letting things take their 'natural', sometimes harmful course. Certainly evil is ultimately responsible for the ugliness of life, but it is God who allows it to happen.

Prayer to me is getting God directly involved where he is otherwise letting things be as they will be. This truth changed my prayer life. Get God involved in your life and circumstances--pray. And go from God letting things happen, to God purposely intervening on your behalf for your good. And take comfort in accepting that the things that he may allow to happen have a purpose and didn't simply happen because you did not seek his intervention.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hebrews 2:10 NASB, Hebrews 5:8 NASB, Luke 2:52 NASB

.

Luke 2:52.................. I am impressed brother Jethro. Jesus had to prove himself as the Son of God in flesh. It was no cake walk for him, and our example.

I think the aspect of 'God's will' that they are entertaining is this:

"12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 "But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee." (Exodus 21:12-13 NASB)

This is how the NIV puts it:

"12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. " (Exodus 21:12-13 NIV)

I think this shows that God is in control even when he's not in control, because he controls things by not getting involved, and letting things take their 'natural', sometimes harmful course. Certainly evil is ultimately responsible for the ugliness of life, but it is God who allows it to happen.

Prayer to me is getting God directly involved where he is otherwise letting things be as they will be. This truth changed my prayer life. Get God involved in your life and circumstances--pray. And go from God letting things happen, to God purposely intervening on your behalf for your good. And accepting that the things that he may allow to happen have a purpose and didn't simply happen because you did not seek his intervention.

Thank you for sharing that scripture. God is in Control when He is not in Control? I know it can get sort of confusing.

I am not sure if that scripture saying God might intervene? God gave the man into the other mans hands?
One thing is certain, the man did not lay in wait, and had covenant with God that would have protected him since it seems the other man attacked him.

I suspect it's God keeping his covenant of protection to the man who did not lay in wait and was right with God. The other cases were evil and did not get God's favor.

A whole lot goes on that God is not pleased with at all, and has no part.

Jesus said, thy Rule, authority, come, they will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Must mean not a whole lot was going on in Earth God was to happy about when Jesus prayed that.

The heavens belong to the Lord, the Earth He gave to the children of men. That could be a good reason earth is not in God's will as Heaven is.............. We messed it up.

Thank you for sharing and the scripture. I love scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not sure if that scripture saying God might intervene? God gave the man into the other mans hands?
One thing is certain, the man did not lay in wait, and had covenant with God that would have protected him since it seems the other man attacked him.

I suspect it's God keeping his covenant of protection to the man who did not lay in wait and was right with God. The other cases were evil and did not get God's favor.

Deuteronomy 19:4-5 NASB gives a little more insight into this matter of God allowing something bad to happen that was spoken about in the Exodus 21:12-13 NASB passage.

"4 This is the rule concerning the man who kills another and flees there to save his life--one who kills his neighbor unintentionally, without malice aforethought. 5 For instance, a man may go into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and as he swings his ax to fell a tree, the head may fly off and hit his neighbor and kill him." (Deuteronomy 19:4-5 NASB)

It's an example of God allowing something to happen talked about in the Exodus 21:12-13 NASB scripture. In this example, the man didn't intend to kill the other man. God allowed it. God allowed the ax head to fly off and kill his neighbor. That's how things work in this fallen world. God often allows it. That's why I pray about things. I want God to intervene on my behalf and protect me from how things work here in this fallen world.

 

[Brother Mike]

Deuteronomy 19:4-5 NASB gives a little more insight into this matter of God allowing something bad to happen that was spoken about in the Exodus 21:12-13 NASB passage.

"4 This is the rule concerning the man who kills another and flees there to save his life--one who kills his neighbor unintentionally, without malice aforethought. 5 For instance, a man may go into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and as he swings his ax to fell a tree, the head may fly off and hit his neighbor and kill him." (Deuteronomy 19:4-5 NASB)

It's an example of God allowing something to happen talked about in the Exodus 21:12-13 NASB scripture. In this example, the man didn't intend to kill the other man. God allowed it. God allowed the ax head to fly off and kill his neighbor. That's how things work in this fallen world. God often allows it. That's why I pray about things. I want God to intervene on my behalf and protect me from how things work here in this fallen world.

I am not sure "Allow" is the right word. Paul said pray, because not all men (Us) have faith and God is faithful to deliver you from wicked and evil men. Every single time without fail........... Pray.

You pray, God keeps you and yours. God is faithful.

If we say God Allows, it's kind of saying God could stop it if He wanted. God just can't stop anything though, it's your prayer that gives him the right to do so.

Scripture says that without God (EPH) people are without hope in this World. A scary thing to walk out the door without God. He has protected me and my family from so much stuff, and that is the stuff we know about.

God allowed a whole lot of his people to be destroyed, but It's not that He wanted them destroyed, he does not even take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Satan had a right to kill them.

God wants a place to protect and help. Otherwise He can't. Jesus said it's according ot our faith that it's done to us.

Satan is god of this World, and it's our prayer and trust in him that gives God the room to stand on our behalf. If God be for us, then nobody can be against us.

If God is not for you.............. That's a bad place to be.

I think it's more of God protecting his own, not that God "Allows" If God could He would see nobody perish and all come to the knowledge of the truth.

Satan still has time left down here. God will not violate his Word and stomp on the devils toes. It's one reason Satan argued over Moses body. Moses did not go to hell, and Satan at the time had the keys. Satan called foul, but I know it was leagal.

Lots to think about that topic.

Be blessed.

 

[Jesse]

I am not sure "Allow" is the right word. Paul said pray, because not all men (Us) have faith and God is faithful to deliver you from wicked and evil men. Every single time without fail........... Pray.

You pray, God keeps you and yours. God is faithful.

If we say God Allows, it's kind of saying God could stop it if He wanted. God just can't stop anything though, it's your prayer that gives him the right to do so.

Scripture says that without God (EPH) people are without hope in this World. A scary thing to walk out the door without God. He has protected me and my family from so much stuff, and that is the stuff we know about.

God allowed a whole lot of his people to be destroyed, but It's not that He wanted them destroyed, he does not even take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Satan had a right to kill them.

God wants a place to protect and help. Otherwise He can't. Jesus said it's according ot our faith that it's done to us.

Satan is god of this World, and it's our prayer and trust in him that gives God the room to stand on our behalf. If God be for us, then nobody can be against us.

If God is not for you.............. That's a bad place to be.

I think it's more of God protecting his own, not that God "Allows" If God could He would see nobody perish and all come to the knowledge of the truth.

Satan still has time left down here. God will not violate his Word and stomp on the devils toes. It's one reason Satan argued over Moses body. Moses did not go to hell, and Satan at the time had the keys. Satan called foul, but I know it was leagal.

Lots to think about that topic.

Be blessed.

God could stop it if he wanted to, how do you think he protects us? He will break his own laws of nature in order to do so. He allowed Lot and his family to be saved from the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah. He allowed Noah's family to be saved from a devastating flood. He allowed Moses to be saved in a basket and raised by the Egyptians. He allowed His Son to die on a cross. The Bible is filled with examples of God allowing certain scenarios to play out.

God could cause every single person to turn to Him, but he doesn't want a bunch of robots, he wants our hearts yielded to Him in submission to His authority. He gave us free will so that we could choose Him, so we could mature and make decisions that line up with His Will all on our own accord.

God parted the seas, put people to death, transported Philip, raises the dead, He is a mighty God that is capable of allowing or disallowing things to be done, but He also allows natural courses to take place as well.

 

[Brother Mike]

God could stop it if he wanted to, how do you think he protects us? He will break his own laws of nature in order to do so. He allowed Lot and his family to be saved from the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah. He allowed Noah's family to be saved from a devastating flood. He allowed Moses to be saved in a basket and raised by the Egyptians. He allowed His Son to die on a cross. The Bible is filled with examples of God allowing certain scenarios to play out.

God could cause every single person to turn to Him, but he doesn't want a bunch of robots, he wants our hearts yielded to Him in submission to His authority. He gave us free will so that we could choose Him, so we could mature and make decisions that line up with His Will all on our own accord.

God parted the seas, put people to death, transported Philip, raises the dead, He is a mighty God that is capable of allowing or disallowing things to be done, but He also allows natural courses to take place as well.

NO, God could not, and can not stop a whole lot of things.

God could not stop Satan from Getting Job.

Could not stop Saul from making those wrong choices. The list is long of things God could not do.

One good thing about forums is it helps us snap out of reliegious junk and get with other believers to see light in things we never hear at our own churchs.

You need to understannd a couple things Jesse............ God never changes, Is always the same, and by that we can have confidence in Him..

The God the reliegious world teaches us about is an outlaw, a violator of his own Word, untrustable.. That is the God Satan wants you to believe in.

www.flcbranson.org/listseries.php?xml=rss/BeLed.xmlSo, found Noah to have favor in his eyes, the line of Seth............ Noah obeyed God, and by that God made a way to save a part of mankind. We almost became extinct.

God never one time has broken his own law of nature.......... He upholds all things by the Word of his power, to break his own natural laws, would mean violating his own Word that holds up all things. Faith is a substance of things, by this Faith the Worlds were formed and made (Heb 11:3) God operates on a higher law than science understands. Not understanding something does not mean God violates anything. Jesus turned Water to wine. Jesus did not change any physical laws, He by right operated in a law we don't fully understand but Paul said a full grown believer is not subject to the elements of this World. We need to get ahold of that for the last days.

Abraham asked God to save Lot:

So its not God "Allowing" that would indicate God could stop if He wanted. God won't step on the toes of the god of this World without a place. He is not lawless, and upholds his own Word. God can't break his own Word, never.

Job is a great example of how this all works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While the topic of God in control/ not in control is interesting, and I've made my own contribution to that discussion, I'm hoping it doesn't derail the OP. I'm hoping the questions I asked will get answered so we can continue to discuss the OP.

When you're guilty, your're guilty. I have no problem with being convicted of my sins. And that's perfectly consistent with scripture. Particularly Romans 8:1-4 NASB. Convicted or condemned doesn't have to categorically mean 'damned' if that's the connotation some people want to attach to it, though it might mean that for the person who really is damned.

 

[Brother Mike]

While the topic of God in control/ not in control is interesting, and I've made my own contribution to that discussion, I'm hoping it doesn't derail the OP. I'm hoping the questions I asked will get answered so we can continue to discuss the OP.

When you're guilty, your're guilty. I have no problem with being convicted of my sins. And that's perfectly consistent with scripture. Particularly Romans 8:1 NASB. Convicted or condemned doesn't have to categorically mean 'damned' if that's the connotation some people want to attach to it, though it might mean that for the person who really is damned.

There are lots of scriptures about Purging yourself to be a vessel of Honor fit for the Masters use. Paul said Judge ourselves so we don't get judged. We are to run our race, We are to lay aside every weight and sin that besets (Gets us off course) from our race............ WE DO THAT.

we have to be careful as there are things "WE" are told to do......... Put our old man under, put our own body in subjection. So on.

Doing wrong, you already knew you did Wrong, else you would not know it's wrong. The Holy Spirit has no reason to "Convict" or mention what you did. You already know, and are told to judge yourself, and not do that again. Repent as you know you did wrong.

It's not a feeling, or emotion. You know you did wrong, you fix it and get right with God. You know you did Wrong because you violated the light you had, not that God convicted you.

Things we need our thinking changed on, and don't know it's Wrong. God sends the Word, and gives us instruction to change those things. First we must get the revelation from God that there are better ways than what we currently know.

An example, two believers living together who never considered or understand your suppose to be married first. Once they get that revelation, then they can make the changes and seperate or marry.

So it's never a conviction of sin. You know right away if you blown it or not, and you were told to judge yourself, make the changes.

If you have goofy ways that need changed (We all do) then God works on those things a few at a time. The more we walk with God, the more we see areas we need to fix that are normal for us but not God's best.

Feeling bad, or having our heart condemn us is not God, it's carnal and we can't be led by feelings. Having a heart that feels bad (Condemned) hurts our confidence in God. (1JOhn)

Believers are use to being feeling led and carnally led, so they try to relate to God this way, and it is not going to work for them.

There are things I have done, and once revelaed it almost makes you sick inside. You think, How could I have done that? You want to run far from it and ensure that never happens again. That is "YOUR" conscience and heart not God.

The Bible speaks a lot about conscience. That is given to us by God to help steer away from things that are bad. We need to keep our conscience clean of all things.

Even those dirty dishes in the sink. It's that serious.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm guessing this means that if we love God with all our Heart, all our Mind, and all our Power, but (unintentionally) screw up from time to time, He's not going to hold it against us because He knows our hearts are set on him. Do I got it right?

You hit the mark as I know it. I would have said unplanned instead of unintentionally but other wise this is exactly wat the Spirit has taught me.

 

[Northman]

Thanks for posting that article Willy. A brother at work here was struggling with this kind of despair. One paragraph of plain words from that article was just perfect for opening discussion about the issue. Revelation happened, you could see the weight lifted, and grown men shed tears of joy as yet even more of the truth of His almighty and merciful character was revealed.

Funny thing...
I read this and not even a few hours later he told me of the problem he was facing. Talk about tools before you even need them. God is so good!

 

[Willie T]

That's the way He works. Glad it helped.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thanks for posting that article Willy. A brother at work here was struggling with this kind of despair. One paragraph of plain words from that article was just perfect for opening discussion about the issue. Revelation happened, you could see the weight lifted, and grown men shed tears of joy as yet even more of the truth of His almighty and merciful character was revealed.

Funny thing...
I read this and not even a few hours later he told me of the problem he was facing. Talk about tools before you even need them. God is so good!

One reason I take these threads serious from Certain believers. It's anointed believers giving Revelation by the Holy Spirit. And many read these forums and never sign up, they just come and read as they feel they don't know enough scripture to contribute or have time. The Truth will "MAKE" you free and God is always faithful to get the right things across at the right time.

Willie had the right thing from God at the right time, prompted on his heart to post about this, mess with the reliegious heads, but great help to someone God knew about and more God knows, and we don't.

 

[YosefHayim]

Through the lense of grace this makes sense - the Holy Spirit will not convict us, at least in the sense of condemnation. Look at my avatar. Romans 8:1. Furthermore look at Revelation. Who is our 'accuser'. The accuser is that dragon and ancient serpent which beguiled eve with aubtility Anderson deceiveth the whole world.

But I think there's another kind of conviction. There us grace. That favour that changes the soul. Scripture says that we can't "stop sinning". It's the Holy Spirit that, through the PROCESS Of sanctification, cleanses us of sins.

When we are saved, it's all Christ's working. He's the author of our salvation. Our fruits are not ours, but his. See phil 1:11. It's godly sorrow, at the realization of our complete depravity, that works us to repent. Then, as Paul said, our fleah fades and our inner man grows til redemption.

We are going to have a flesh-spirit battle. As scripture says "the flesh is weak, bit the Spirit is willing" and also "the flesh lusteth after the spirit, and the spirt after the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that ye can not do the thigs ye would".

Upon salvation we have repentance. The change of mind. The agreement with God.

After that if we sin we have an advocate. And we can confess our sins. Which I believe to be a little different than that 'salvation repentance". Now we strive for peace with all men. When we sin as Christians, it hinders fellowship. That's when we are either 'convicted' or 'given into that sin'. Not unto damnation, but revelation and exortation. The realization that once again, we took things in our own hands. But God orchestrates our lives as Christians so that we may grow on him, no matter what happens.

I think conviction and condemnation can be confused.

For God is good, his mercy is everlasting, and his truth endureth to all generations.