God will not convict believers of sin!

[Karl]

I posted this in another thread, but it seems to be appropriate here for those that say they don't sense any conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

The Hidden Line (The Destiny of Men)
by Joseph Addison Alexander (1809-1860)

There is a time, we know not when,
A point we know not where,
That marks the destiny of men
To glory or despair.

There is a line by us unseen,
That crosses every path;
The hidden boundary between
God’s patience and his wrath.

To pass that limit is to die–
To die as if by stealth;
It does not quench the beaming eye
Or pale the glow of health.

The conscience may be still at ease,
The spirit lithe and gay;
That which pleases still may please,
And care be thrust away

But on that forehead God has set,
Indelibly a mark
Unseen by men, for men as yet
Are blind and in the dark

And yet doomed man’s path below
May bloom as Eden bloomed;
He did not, does not, will not know,
Or feel that he is doomed

He knows, he feels that all is well,
And every fear is calmed;
He lives, he dies, he wakes in hell,
Not only doomed, but damned.

Oh, where is this mysterious bourn
By which our path is crossed;
Beyond which God himself hath sworn,
That he who goes is lost.

How far may we go on in sin?
How long will God forbear?
Where does hope end, and where begin
The confines of despair?

An answer from the skies is sent,
"Ye that from God depart,
While it is called today, repent,
And harden not your heart."

 

[Willie T]

So, it's simple then, Karl, basically, quit seeing how much you can get away with?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks for posting that article Willy. A brother at work here was struggling with this kind of despair. One paragraph of plain words from that article was just perfect for opening discussion about the issue. Revelation happened, you could see the weight lifted, and grown men shed tears of joy as yet even more of the truth of His almighty and merciful character was revealed.

Funny thing...
I read this and not even a few hours later he told me of the problem he was facing. Talk about tools before you even need them. God is so good!

I'm wondering, did his despair bring him to God's forgiveness or did he take some kind of comfort that he can stay in the thing that is causing his despair and everything will be okay? Serious question.

Grace becomes a license when you think it was given so you can stay in your sin and feel good about it. I suspect way too many Christians have this view of grace. Grace was given to us to deliver us from our sin, not enable us to live in it guilt free.

 

[Willie T]

I like you, Jethro, and some of you others. too. But I will tell you flatly, that I do get very sick and tired of you guys constantly saying people who believe in grace are openly just dirty sinners, intent on living like Hell, and doing (so it seems, from you) all manner of evil and vile things... and that we believe in grace for the specific purpose of wallowing in the ditch with pigs.

I really would like you to have the nerve to stand up and show me all these sinners you see all around you.

Frankly, you are calling every one of us right here on this forum who believe in grace, not only filthy sinners, but also bald-faced liars when we say we try to live for God.

If this is what you think of us, please be man (or woman) enough to name names, and quit just making sly little comments. If it is not what you believe, then how about cutting out that junk?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm one of those who believes in grace. So I'm not directing anything at the doctrine of grace. What I'm tired of is people thinking grace is an excuse to shake off the guilt of unrepentant sin because grace means man's peace with God has nothing to do with them in any way shape or form. That is the perverted doctrine of grace that presently grips the church. Freegrace and chessman are prophets of that perverted, damnable gospel. What I sense is that many, many sheep are blindly and ignorantly following in that doctrine simply because they don't know any better. I can't tell if you are a prophet of that false gospel or a blind follower, or neither, because frankly, you deliver conflicting comments about the subject.

 

[Willie T]

Like I said........... WHO? I've been around a bit longer than you, and I have yet to see that.
Yeah, I hear a lot of people harping about it, but I've never seen the reality of it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The names that I can name are of those who believe doctrines that say it does not matter what you do--that you are peace with God no matter what.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age..." (Titus 2: 11-12 NASB)

But so many show by what they say that grace has taught them to say "it doesn't matter how I live since salvation is so utterly not about what I do. I'll change if I can, but it doesn't matter if I do."

 

[Willie T]

The names that I can name are of those who believe doctrines that say it does not matter what you do--that you are peace with God no matter what.

I've never heard anyone say that. Not here. Not anywhere.

I HAVE heard people say (and I believe it, too) that God does not quit loving us because we sin. And that God does not have a requirement that we put on sack cloth, and dump ashes on our heads, moaning and wailing about some theatrical "repentance" performance, and then mope around trying to show how guilty we feel.

When I screw up, and it is often, I usually am weak, and have a few minutes of letting the Devil lay a guilt trip on me, but then I tell God that , "Well, I still can't get THAT right. I'm sorry... but you already know that. Thank you that you know one more promise from me about doing better, is just that.... another promise. But, more importantly, I thank you that you knew this was coming today (and all the times more I may blow it with the same thing), yet you have already forgiven my past failures, AND keep on forgiving the times you know are yet to come."

Grace, to me, is not a required performance of trying to prove to God how guilty I feel, but an acceptance that I am never going to get it all correct, and that my father just loves me and the fact that I'm still going to keep getting back up, and climbing up into His embrace.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

'm guessing this means that if we love God with all our Heart, all our Mind, and all our Power, but (unintentionally) screw up from time to time, He's not going to hold it against us because He knows our hearts are set on him. Do I got it right?
I'd call that a bull's-eye.

I'd call that a bull's-eye.

Man thats like saying once saved always saved and we know God will forgive us our sins so hey come on lets just do what ever we want.....
The Holy Spirit does and will convict you of wrong doing...that is if YOU have ears to hear and have a close relationship with Him. If we as believers did not get a conviction of our sinning then we would NOT ever repent and grow.......If you have no conviction within your walk with GOD then you are either the only perfect man out side of Jesus or you really are not renewing your mind and walking close with God.

Now in John we are told if we are faithful to confess our sins and trespasses to Him that He is not only True and Just to forgive us of these sins BUT clense us of all unrightiousness. This is NOT simply a one time thing when we get born again...........NO NO NO..........Sin in our lives will Stop the flow of the Blessing and will Hinder your Walk within the Kingdom of God.....which should be right where you are now. SOOOOOOOO no conviction then no repenting and no clensing either.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When I screw up, and it is often, I usually am weak, and have a few minutes of letting the Devil lay a guilt trip on me, but then I tell God that , "Well, I still can't get THAT right. I'm sorry... but you already know that. Thank you that you know one more promise from me about doing better, is just that.... another promise. But, more importantly, I thank you that you knew this was coming today (and all the times more I may blow it with the same thing), yet you have already forgiven my past failures, AND keep on forgiving the times you know are yet to come."

No one's going to argue with the fundamental truth of what you're saying here. The problem is this is way too flippant for, say, the rage-aholic, or the adulterer, or the obsessive gambler who just lost another house and family. Something's missing out of your description of grace.

I think it could be summed up that the church in general lacks a seriousness about sin and the power of grace to overcome sin. Grace is not a license to take it easy about your sin. It's quite the opposite. It's the opportunity and the power to get serious and put the deeds of the flesh to death, not co-exist with them in a guilt free 'someday I'll overcome this if I can' environment.

IMO, shunning the conviction of guilt is the worst thing you can do to grow in the grace of God. That voice inside wooing the believer towards confession and repentance of sin and the love of God and a seriousness about sin is the fulfillment of the prophets words that God would write his law on the hearts of his people causing them to be obedient. The church in general lacks the faith to believe that we can be on the road of an ever-increasing obedience and victory over sin. A lack of faith that has been improperly excused in the name of grace. That's not what grace is for. This attitude about grace has made the church weak and powerless and hypocritical in the eyes of the world.

 

[Willie T]

Well then, I guess you'll just continue living with guilt and shame, thinking it will somehow impress God if you beat your breast harder and harder... and I will live in God's forgiveness.
Whatever you feel works for you.

 

[Jesse]

I have a question, if we know the Holy Spirit is capable of being grieved:

Ehp 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.…

How do we know we are grieving the Holy Spirit unless He tells us? If we grieve the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we feel something for doing so. If a person offends a brother, don't we feel bad and not want to do that which offended them?

Grieving the Holy Spirit and He telling us we have, teaches us how to behave and how to be pure and Holy. Which is what God told us to do - Be Holy as He is Holy. How do we know, if He doesn't tell us? Wouldn't this be hindering our growth in Christ?

 

[Willie T]

I have a question, if we know the Holy Spirit is capable of being grieved:

Ehp 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.…

How do we know we are grieving the Holy Spirit unless He tells us? If we grieve the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we feel something for doing so. If a person offends a brother, don't we feel bad and not want to do that which offended them?

Grieving the Holy Spirit and He telling us we have, teaches us how to behave and how to be pure and Holy. Which is what God told us to do - Be Holy as He is Holy. How do we know, if He doesn't tell us? Wouldn't this be hindering our growth in Christ?

Of course all Christians feel bad over doing wrong....... Otherwise I would not have said that I sometimes let Satan pull his age-old Guilt & Shame trick on me.

I know you are not a parent, Jesse, but if you were, can you see yourself wanting your child to wallow in the mire of shame and remorse over their wrongs, thinking they are just horrible little monsters? OR..... would you want them to understand their shortcomings, and regret having hurt you or others, then letting you hug them, assuring them that you never stopped loving them for a second?

This is the awful danger of not accepting grace. (which, BTW, is NOT a power we possess to become Super Christians, but simply God giving us love we don't deserve) Just about anyone who feels WE make things right by suffering and wallowing in guilt, will also tell you that they were "out of communion... or fellowship" with God until they affected reconciliation by doing the due penance of "a good, healthy period of enduring shame."

This is not God, nor Biblical.... but we feel we have to do all that, or we don't deserve to have God love us.

But ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Isn't God loving us long before we ever loved Him (even while we were murdering Him) what Christianity is all about... its very core?

 

[Willie T]

On the matter of having to feel all this guilt.... How much guilt is enough guilt?

What if the guilt you feel isn't sufficient in the eyes of God.... or, if you didn't stay in that mode quite long enough?

Uh oh! Yeah, how CAN we know? Maybe we better feel even guiltier? Or add another couple of days to the mourning?

 

[Jesse]

Of course all Christians feel bad over doing wrong....... Otherwise I would not have said that I sometimes let Satan pull his age-old Guilt & Shame trick on me.

I know you are not a parent, Jesse, but if you were, can you see yourself wanting your child to wallow in the mire of shame and remorse over their wrongs, thinking they are just horrible little monsters? OR..... would you want them to understand their shortcomings, and regret having hurt you or others, then letting you hug them, assuring them that you never stopped loving them for a second?

This is the awful danger of not accepting grace. (which, BTW, is NOT a power we possess to become Super Christians, but simply God giving us love we don't deserve) Just about anyone who feels WE make things right by suffering and wallowing in guilt, will also tell you that they were "out of communion... or fellowship" with God until they affected reconciliation by doing the due penance of "a good, healthy period of enduring shame."

This is not God, nor Biblical.... but we feel we have to do all that, or we don't deserve to have God love us.

But ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Isn't God loving us long before we ever loved Him (even while we were murdering Him) what Christianity is all about... its very core?

Guilt and this type of fear is not from the Lord.

True sorrow and repentance is from the Lord and that is what I would call conviction because we have grieved the Holy Spirit and we should feel sorrow, to the point of not wanting to do it again.

We have different definitions of grace, I see grace as God empowering us to walk as Christ, loving God and our neighbor, this is supernatural in our new creation (which is also supernatural), because it's no longer our nature, it's His, we are partaking in the divine nature - supernaturally.

That's what I have learned, you would not agree?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well then, I guess you'll just continue living with guilt and shame, thinking it will somehow impress God if you beat your breast harder and harder... and I will live in God's forgiveness.
Whatever you feel works for you.

The guilt and shame of your sin drives you to the forgiveness of God. That's the intention. You have a horrible misunderstanding of this matter if you think this is about wallowing in the shame and guilt of your sin. It's about honestly and humbly acknowledging that guilt and shame and then getting it wiped away through confession and repentance and the forgiveness of God. But the church has conveniently side stepped the conviction part in what I sense is at best a lack of faith in God's power to heal sin, and at worst an arrogance that doesn't want to acknowledge personal responsibility for sin. The church's attitude in general is one of 'let's not talk about how sinful we are, let's just talk about how great God is', not knowing that you can't separate the two. A genuine brokenness and sorrow over sin is the essential foundation for living in the forgiveness God gives. In our modern 'PC' era it's taboo to talk about sin guilt and taking personal responsibility for that sin.

 

[Jesse]

On the matter of having to feel all this guilt.... How much guilt is enough guilt?

What if the guilt you feel isn't sufficient in the eyes of God.... or, if you didn't stay in that mode quite long enough?

Uh oh! Yeah, how CAN we know? Maybe we better feel even guiltier? Or add another couple of days to the mourning?

The only people who I know who have an abundance of guilt that you describe are Catholics.

 

[Willie T]

We really have to quit this thinking that we are somehow "qualifying" for fellowship by being all down in the mouth.

 

[Willie T]

The only people who I know who have an abundance of guilt that you describe are Catholics.

And people who try to live just that part of Catholicism.