IS JESUS THE LITERAL SON OF GOD?

[Seasoned by Grace]

If you are trying to state the trinity "as written" is a paradox and mystery that no one can fully explain I agree with you. For push comes to shove the foundation is mystery.

Randy and JLB my brothers.

I finally figured out why this topic and most others bother me. I couldn't put my finger on it, until the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

No one on this topic or any others talks about "PRAYING" and SEEKING the HOLY SPIRIT for ANSWERS and for wisdom in what you say is your conclusions.

All these topics should be "BATHED IN PRAYERS" , >and you talking about praying in your conversations<, as you seek GODS WISDOM, NOT YOUR OWN !!! >Otherwise, what's the point ?????????<

Have we forgotten that GOD HIMSELF is a part of every conversation whether we include Him or not, and He has all the answers that are miles above our own.

By the way, my CAPITALIZATIONS aren't about SCREAMING, there about MAKING A POINT or EMPHACISING.

God bless you as you pray and seek God's wisdom not man's.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[JLB]

Is Jesus God?

Yes. Jesus is God.


Do you agree?

 

[for_his_glory]

No one is denying the Spirit of God.
So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.

Gods Spirit would be Divine.

Fathers promise
In the last days I will pour out My Spirit...

Jesus -The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me..

Jesus to the Father-I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me

How could the Father be living in the Son except by His Spirit?
How could Christ be living in us except by the Spirit sent in His name?

A Spirit of a person, in this case God, acts according to the will of the mind of the person.
Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'"

A person has their own will.
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Jesus does speak of the Spirit of God as another. The Father does not.
I put the most weight on what Jesus states.

How does one listen and learn from the Father except by His Spirit? The Spirit who does not speak on His own but only what He hears.

Jesus-It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I never said any one was denying the Spirit of God as I would think everyone knows God is Spirit, not flesh and blood. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all in one the same within the Godhead. Can anyone truly comprehend this? I don't think so, but we try our best to explain it as we receive partial understanding, but will never comprehend the fullness of God.

The Word became flesh and in due time the word that became flesh returned back to Him after His will was accomplished here on earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Even the Prophets declared the coming of Messiah who was from the beginning , but yet never comprehended the fullness of the Godhead.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, if we believe in 3 equal God's co-existence, then we deny Jesus as a Son. So, if any religion believe in the Trinity doctrine, then they have reject Jesus as Son of God.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus is not created. I hope that you have understand why I declared the Trinity doctrine is a false on.

It's not three God's, but only one Spirit that is God as in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being co-equal to each other. God is the word, Jesus being the word made flesh, and the Holy Spirit that gives us understanding of God's word. All three make up the complete Godhead in all His fulness.

 

[for_his_glory]

In discussing the relationship between Father and Son its clear in the testimony that the Father is Jesus's God and that holds through the gospels and revelation.

If you are trying to state the trinity "as written" is a paradox and mystery that no one can fully explain I agree with you. For push comes to shove the foundation is mystery.

The one who put everything under Christ is the Father. And there will come a day when Jesus hands the reign back to the Father when the last enemy that is death is destroyed. If you are premill then death is destroyed or there will be no more death after the 1000 years. The New Jerusalem and the Father will come down from heaven and Gods place will be with man.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The Father will be their God.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Not to nick-pic, but could you please give the book, chapter and verse in order to make it easier for others to follow the scriptures you are using, thank you.

 

[tigger 2]

Not true. I read and have taught Greek. I know the NT Greek language fairly well, so nothing I wrote differs from the exegesis of the Greek text.

Genitive Case
"For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession. In more technical terms one noun in the genitive case helps to qualify another noun by showing its "class" or "kind". The genitive case has more uses than most other cases, but in general a noun in the genitive case helps to limit the scope of another noun by indicating its "kind" or "class". It is generally translated into English with a prepositional phrase starting with the word "of". The most common use of the genitive is to show possession (although it does not necessarily indicate actual, literal ownership).

"For instance: "the servant of the high priest" (Mark 14:47). The words "of the high priest" are in the genitive case in Greek and modify the word "servant". (In Greek the word "of" is not present, but it is supplied in English in the translation of the genitive case)."
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/nouns1.htm

In NT Greek soteros is in the genitive case and means in English "of [the/a] savior." That's why so many translations render Titus 2:13 as I have shown above (post #49).

 

[for_his_glory]

To me there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. (The firstborn of all creation)

The Father is living in the Son and they are one in that manner.

fullness=The Spirit without limit
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God i gives the Spirit without limit. The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Jesus as the Son has His own spirit.
"Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

As the firstborn of all things created Jesus is before all things except His God and is Gods firstborn.

It has always been the church of the Firstborn.
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

...to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

If you can accept it the meaning here is not that God made David His firstborn but that God appointed His Firstborn to the line of David and in Jesus Gods promise to David is fulfilled.

The Christ is forever and is the greatest.
Psalm 89
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure

I really wish you would give the book, chapter and verse for what you speak of. With what you have copied from someone's commentary, how do you reconcile the firstborn with John 1:14-16.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Randy and JLB my brothers.

I finally figured out why this topic and most others bother me. I couldn't put my finger on it, until the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

No one on this topic or any others talks about "PRAYING" and SEEKING the HOLY SPIRIT for ANSWERS and for wisdom in what you say is your conclusions.

All these topics should be "BATHED IN PRAYERS" , >and you talking about praying in your conversations<, as you seek GODS WISDOM, NOT YOUR OWN !!! >Otherwise, what's the point ?????????<

Have we forgotten that GOD HIMSELF is a part of every conversation whether we include Him or not, and He has all the answers that are miles above our own.

By the way, my CAPITALIZATIONS aren't about SCREAMING, there about MAKING A POINT or EMPHACISING.

God bless you as you pray and seek God's wisdom not man's.
My name is OLIGOS

Within everything we study that brings us to maturity in God's word must first be prayed for as we ask the Holy Spirit to reveal all truths of that which God has already spoken. Many who use commentaries never bother to study the scriptures they give to know whether what is being said actually lines up with the full context of scripture. What makes sense to our carnal understanding falls short of the Spiritual understanding we receive through the Holy Spirit.

As far as the Trinity, or what is found in the scriptures as being called Deity, is something we will never fully comprehend in knowing the fullness of the Godhead. But, when we gather to discuss such a topic we can glean from each other bits and parts of scripture that furthers our understanding when we take those scriptures and pray and ask the Holy Spirit, whom by all truths are found, for wisdom and understanding in what God wants us to know as we study them for ourselves.

Once again I will post those scriptures we need to be studying that reference Jesus and the Holy Spirit as being God in all His fulness within the Deity.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Within everything we study that brings us to maturity in God's word must first be prayed for as we ask the Holy Spirit to reveal all truths of that which God has already spoken. Many who use commentaries never bother to study the scriptures they give to know whether what is being said actually lines up with the full context of scripture. What makes sense to our carnal understanding falls short of the Spiritual understanding we receive through the Holy Spirit.

As far as the Trinity, or what is found in the scriptures as being called Deity, is something we will never fully comprehend in knowing the fullness of the Godhead. But, when we gather to discuss such a topic we can glean from each other bits and parts of scripture that furthers our understanding when we take those scriptures and pray and ask the Holy Spirit, whom by all truths are found, for wisdom and understanding in what God wants us to know as we study them for ourselves.

Once again I will post those scriptures we need to be studying that reference Jesus and the Holy Spirit as being God in all His fulness within the Deity.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

for_his_glory
THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pipiripi]

Sir, not every person who believes in the Trinity, which biblically is called the Godhead, or in Hebrew called, Elohim fits into the narrow description you are promoting.

I believe in the Three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God.

I believe Jesus was begotten of the Father, not created.


Please do not say such things to anyone here at this Forum such as:

• “So, if any religion believe in the Trinity doctrine, then they have reject Jesus as Son of God.”

• “Jesus is not created. I hope that you have understand why I declared the Trinity doctrine is a false on.“

Please just discuss what you yourself believe, and use scripture.

Don't make statements about what others believe that misrepresents them.




Thank you. JLB

I understand the defending system. Why attacking the Sabbath the Saturday believers and call Ellen G White false prophet, nobody given a warning? I'm not attacking the Christians that are blind. I'm attacking the leaders that has blind them against the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD FROM THE BIBLE. God has sent His prophets to His people, and His people killed the The true prophets of God. And tried to kill also prophets like Elijah and Jeremiah. Why? Because they don't want to come back to God. This is the same like today. You are trying to kill me because I am the only one that believe in the ONE TRUE GOD AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD. IT IS THEIR SPIRIT, MEANS THEIR POWER. I think that my work here is about to end. Aslong that I read something against the word of God, I declared BIBLICAL that this is coming from Satan himself.

 

[Pipiripi]

There was a distinction that was made between God and Lord that is not captured by orthodox trinity statements.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I was attacked by saying that there is only one true God and Jesus Christ, God His only BEGOTTEN SON. So Jesus is not a created being, and Jesus also have a beginning.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I'm not attacking the Christians that are blind. I'm attacking the leaders that has blind them against the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD FROM THE BIBLE.

My brother Pipiripi

The only reason that people in church are blinded by false teaching. is because they refuse to take the time to take their faith seriously, and invest some dedicated time to reading and studying as the Bereans did in the book of Acts, and researching scripture, instead of forgetting about God as soon as they walk out of church, and go do their own thing that excludes GOD.

If you have your "face" in your bible, seriously, no one will lead you down the path of heresy.

At the end of the day, there is no blaming anyone for your lack of faith or wrong faith, besides the guy looking back at you in the mirror.
Gods holds us all responsible for all we believe and do at the judgement.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD. IT IS THEIR SPIRIT, MEANS THEIR POWER. I think that my work here is about to end. Aslong that I read something against the word of God, I declared BIBLICAL that this is coming from Satan himself.

I think that what you believe about the HOLY SPIRIT NOT BEING GOD, indicates maybe your work(???) here should be done here for now, as your words "BLAPHEME THE WORD OF GOD."

God bless you Pipiripi as you continue your search for the truth.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[JLB]

You are trying to kill me because I am the only one that believe in the ONE TRUE GOD AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD.

Can you refer to a post number where someone threatened to kill you? I would like to read it for myself. This is a very serious accusation.



Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I was attacked by saying that there is only one true God and Jesus Christ, God His only BEGOTTEN SON. So Jesus is not a created being, and Jesus also have a beginning.

Could you point out the scripture that says Jesus had a beginning?


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

• I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,

Jesus Christ does not have a beginning.

Jesus Christ is the Beginning.




JLB

 

[Randy]

I really wish you would give the book, chapter and verse for what you speak of. With what you have copied from someone's commentary, how do you reconcile the firstborn with John 1:14-16.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jesus was with God in the beginning. He is all that the Father is. The creation was made through Him and for Him. And since God stated "let us" make man in "our image" Jesus was a being not a word.

 

[Randy]

I never said any one was denying the Spirit of God as I would think everyone knows God is Spirit, not flesh and blood. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all in one the same within the Godhead. Can anyone truly comprehend this? I don't think so, but we try our best to explain it as we receive partial understanding, but will never comprehend the fullness of God.

The Word became flesh and in due time the word that became flesh returned back to Him after His will was accomplished here on earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Even the Prophets declared the coming of Messiah who was from the beginning , but yet never comprehended the fullness of the Godhead.

I believe Jesus is the first of Gods works. The firstborn of all creation. Before all things except His God. He was with God in the beginning.

Please show me where you read "always was", begotten not made", true God from true God"

And you are correct you didn't state anyone was denying the HS - sorry

 

[Randy]

Yes. Jesus is God.


Do you agree?

In context Yes, He is all that the Father is.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. -from the will of another

 

[Randy]

Randy and JLB my brothers.

I finally figured out why this topic and most others bother me. I couldn't put my finger on it, until the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

No one on this topic or any others talks about "PRAYING" and SEEKING the HOLY SPIRIT for ANSWERS and for wisdom in what you say is your conclusions.

All these topics should be "BATHED IN PRAYERS" , >and you talking about praying in your conversations<, as you seek GODS WISDOM, NOT YOUR OWN !!! >Otherwise, what's the point ?????????<

Have we forgotten that GOD HIMSELF is a part of every conversation whether we include Him or not, and He has all the answers that are miles above our own.

By the way, my CAPITALIZATIONS aren't about SCREAMING, there about MAKING A POINT or EMPHACISING.

God bless you as you pray and seek God's wisdom not man's.
My name is OLIGOS

I asked Jesus about the trinity a long time ago as one who believes in Him. I know who He is. And I know He is aware of this thread. I have not forgotten.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[JLB]

In context Yes, He is all that the Father is.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. -from the will of another

What does that mean, “in context”?

Brother what do you believe God would beget?

A man
An angel
God

Please choose one of these Choices that you believe Jesus is.


Everywhere in the Old Testament where a prophet said...
Thus says the Lord, it was Christ speaking.

I have given you all the scriptures more than once that teaches this.

Do you want me to do it again?

I will be glad to.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


Christ Jesus speaking through Zechariah.


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10





JLB

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

And all that the trinity is, is beyond us to truly understand at Gods level, because God and His word and all His plans ARE SUPER_NATURAL - Beyond the natural - THAT"S US.

We only get a TASTE of the reality and total purpose of the Trinity, and that we have to accept in faith, unless your my age, and I experience the Holy Spirit daily, as He has chosen to stay close to me, as I know He has done for other's here also.

Praise God for His love and mercy.
My name is OLIGOS