IS JESUS THE LITERAL SON OF GOD?

[Randy]

Sorry Randy, but please quote the actual scripture with context for each point you are wanting to make. You seem to have all you know about this subject, all mixed together with no real scripture or context.


You have some great ideas and insight, but there are things about this subject that we must rightly divide, in order to understand what Jesus taught us, and what the Holy Spirit is wanting us to understand.



Here is just one point that needs to be understood.

Here is a scripture that some groups use to teach that Jesus is only a man and not the Lord God.


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-7

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.


So based on this verse, Jesus is just a Man?



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Who became flesh? Who became a little lower than the angels.

• The Father
• The Son
• The Spirit

JLB

Its clear to me the Son who was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
Jesus was not a Word. John referred to Jesus as the word of life. The life appeared. He testified to that life that He saw, touched and heard. As He stated in 1 john.
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness
The one on the throne has the figure of a man- not a man or flesh and blood but man was created with that form after the likeness of God and Jesus. "let us"


Jesus preexisted the creation let alone the body conceived in Mary's womb
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Jesus on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

We also know it was the Father living in Jesus doing His work.
John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

It is written the creation was created through Him and for Him.
Who is the one creating through Jesus and for Jesus- It can only be the Father.
And in like manner as the Son of Man I would also state it was also the Father in Him creating.
"the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

Col 1:15-19 - Who is the Jesus who was and is. The firstborn of all things created. The first of Gods works. One who was gifted the fullness. Not someone who always was. I know from Him He has always been the Son.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

vs 19 - from the will of another and a point in history before the creation (genesis) not always was and not of Jesus

Jesus is Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all things -before all other things except His God the Father
Hebrews 1:6 - about the Son
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

 

[Randy]

Randy, Im the one who quoted the scripture for all to examine, plainly and in the open for everyone to examine.

The Father is the one who gives His name to the Son.

The Father is greater than the Son.

You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
John 14:28


Jesus came forth from God the Father, and is God; the only begotten of the Father.

The Son created all things, according to the will of the Father.


If you believe God the Father Beget something other than God, then please explain what you believe God the Father Beget, with scripture.



Man begets man.

Animal begets animal.

God begets God.



JLB

How is that so in your belief that Jesus is I Am?
If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

 

[JLB]

Jesus was not a Word.

Jesus is not a word.

Jesus is the Word.



JLB

 

[JLB]

How is that so in your belief that Jesus is I Am?
If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

Because Jesus plainly said He is I AM.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


The Jews who He said this to, understood exactly what Jesus was saying about Himself, because they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy; for saying He is YHWH, the Lord God.


The question is, do you understand this?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all things -before all other things except His God the Father
Hebrews 1:6 - about the Son
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Do angels worship God?

 

[Randy]

Do angels worship God?

The ones that remained faithful to Him -yes.

 

[Randy]

Because Jesus plainly said He is I AM.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


The Jews who He said this to, understood exactly what Jesus was saying about Himself, because they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy; for saying He is YHWH, the Lord God.


The question is, do you understand this?





JLB

We have been through this before

He stated "before" Abraham was born I am.

And that was in response to your not 50 years old.
John 8:57
"You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

I believe Jesus was before the world began. Certainly before Abraham was born

 

[Randy]

Jesus is not a word.

Jesus is the Word.



JLB

Jesus is being is what I meant. Whose Word?

 

[JLB]

Jesus on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

Yes. Jesus is the Son of God.


Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:24-25

 

[JLB]

Jesus is being is what I meant. Whose Word?

Jesus is the Message of salvation.

Jesus is the Word of Life.

Jesus is Lord.

Jesus is the Light of the world.

Jesus Is our covenant.

Jesus is our great God and Savior.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 2:1



as it is written


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Was the Son manifested in the flesh or the Father?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is being is what I meant. Whose Word?

The Word is God.

JESUS is the Word.

Jesus the Son of God became flesh.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus as God is omnipresent.


But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

He dwells in all His people whether in heaven or on earth.

• if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

He dwelt in all the prophets of old.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ

Example:


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10








JLB

 

[Moseme]

Clearly the Father says we are to have no other Gods before Him.

You shall have no other gods before me Exodus 20:3
You shall not bow down to them or worship them Exodus 20:5

This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him! Matt 17:5

Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Matt 28:9

The Son is clearly Gods son, whatever that means in this unusual situation, and the Son is also clearly God, worthy of worship, approved of by the Father. God does not describe this reality as a theory, but rather a status reality, which we need to accept as He is the one who defines what is and is not in all creation.

Interestingly even with this face to face reality and all that has happened, "some doubted" Matt 28:17

The Lord desires that we come to the realisation of reality and it is not forced on us.

27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Matt 20:27-28

Here is Jesus, resurrected, encouraging Thomas to see and feel the reality and realise that Jesus is God.
To Jews for a man to be God is blasphemy unless they are God, so this is a crucial issue, a point where the pharisees themselves would execute people. The difference between God the Father, His holiness, His authority, His rules over which disobedience lead to death, and Jesus who did not break a bruised reed.

A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.
Matt 12:20

This seeming contradiction was hard to take in, but in Jesus both dwelt side by side. The disciples suggested that when they were rejected, God should bring down judgement on those who rejected Him.

"Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"
But Jesus turned and rebuked them,
Luke 9:54-55

God bless you

So you have at least 2 God's. The father who is the only God and yet Jesus who is also God? May I suggest that God is infinite?

 

[Moseme]

Because the fullness was gifted to Him at His beginning at some point in history before the world began.

"the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" - from the will of another and a point in history

what is the fullness? You know in C.S. Lewis' mere Christianity he states how God is a relational God who enjoys relationships. But also God is a God who does not change. And if God is a relational God now then he has always been a relational God, he has always been in a relationship and that is where the Godhead comes in. That the son is just as eternal as the father and the holy spirit. Interesting concept to think about.

 

[Moseme]

Jesus is being is what I meant. Whose Word?

Can I ask you a few questions?
1. Do you believe the father is God and he created Jesus?
2. Jesus is God?
3. The father is the only true God?

 

[Randy]

The Word is God.

JESUS is the Word.

Jesus the Son of God became flesh.




JLB

That is cohesive with my beliefs about the Son.

 

[JLB]

That is cohesive with my beliefs about the Son.

Ok.


Do you believe the Son is God?

Not God the Father, but God the Son.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Ok.


Do you believe the Son is God?

Not God the Father, but God the Son.



JLB

Yes, but it is how that is so that we differ. I believe ALL that is written about Jesus

 

[Randy]

Can I ask you a few questions?
1. Do you believe the father is God and he created Jesus?
2. Jesus is God?
3. The father is the only true God?

1. Yes
2. Yes and No
3 Yes

Jesus's Spirit was formed as the first of Gods works but the fullness was gifted. So the fullness was not formed.
In that gifting the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. The image of the invisible God. All that the Father is. God in that context.
As firstborn the Father is His God and the only true God and Jesus has always been the Son. Not God in that context.

 

[Moseme]

1. Yes
2. Yes and No
3 Yes

Jesus's Spirit was formed as the first of Gods works but the fullness was gifted. So the fullness was not formed.
In that gifting the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. The image of the invisible God. All that the Father is. God in that context.
As firstborn the Father is His God and the only true God and Jesus has always been the Son. Not God in that context.

Your answer is vague. Is Jesus God to be worshipped or did the bible lie? Did Jesus wrongly accept worship? You obviously see the problem if the father is the one true God and Jesus is a god but not the father then Jesus is a false god. If Jesus is not God then the bible lied and all arguments are pointless, none having any standing in truth.

But the scriptures are true. Jesus is God and he is not the father. So the only issue is how we see the father as the one true God. After all it was the Son, the Word who would be made flesh that spoke the commandments to Moses claiming that he was the one true God. God is not a God who changes and Jesus has always been the mediator for man even before the Word was made flesh.